Evidence of meeting #93 for National Defence in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was mali.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Marie-Joëlle Zahar  Professor and Research Director of the Peace Operations Network, Université de Montreal, As an Individual
Carolyn McAskie  Former Special Representative of the Secretary General and Head of the United Nations Peacekeeping Mission in Burundi, As an Individual
Walter Dorn  Professor, Royal Military College of Canada, Department of Defence Studies, As an Individual

9:35 a.m.

Conservative

Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON

How are these insurgents in the north, who are providing these resources to the people there, being funded? Where are they getting their money from to do this?

9:35 a.m.

Professor and Research Director of the Peace Operations Network, Université de Montreal, As an Individual

Dr. Marie-Joëlle Zahar

There's a lot of criminality and transnational networks. Mali is on the route for smuggling contraband and drugs to Europe. There is a connection—and a difficulty related to the connection—between criminality and otherwise political groups, but it's part of people trying to get resources where there are no other resources to be found.

At the negotiating table, many of these groups ask the government to become the border police so that they could actually have stable jobs and move their people away from criminality. To me, that is the best sign that they are serious. Sadly, that was not an option accepted by the current government, but this doesn't mean that there isn't the potential. There is a potential in the country for these groups to be taken out of this bigger constellation of Islamist terrorist groups that have been operating elsewhere as well.

9:35 a.m.

Conservative

Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON

Thank you.

9:35 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Stephen Fuhr

MP Garrison is next.

9:35 a.m.

NDP

Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC

Thanks very much, Mr. Chair, and thanks very much to the witnesses. I'll try to resist the temptation to testify myself, and I want to reassure the witnesses that the phrasing of our study doesn't necessarily indicate the title of our study. The motion may in fact evolve, based on the testimony we're hearing, and it was my motion, which was moved a year and a half ago. Things have been moving very rapidly.

I want to focus my questions on Professor Zahar, because I know she has to leave shortly. I want to follow up on some of the things Ms. Gallant was asking about.

I would start by asking why the UN mission is the best to tackle situations such as Mali. How does it have advantages over other things that are going on, such as the counter-insurgency mission or the G5 Sahel?

9:35 a.m.

Professor and Research Director of the Peace Operations Network, Université de Montreal, As an Individual

Dr. Marie-Joëlle Zahar

As briefly as possible, it's because the missions are not just about military. They recognize and work on the connections among insecurity, governance problems, and development problems. It's because in spite of the fact that everyone criticizes the UN, including Malian actors, when you get them in a room and talk to them, they will recognize that the UN doesn't have the kinds of direct interest that other countries have in a specific outcome in Mali beyond just peace and security.

Algeria negotiated the agreement because, to put it bluntly, the Algerians didn't want to see another insurgency at their border. Once they started being concerned with Libya, their concern was to finish quickly with Mali so that they could turn to Libya. That haste is part of the reason we have an agreement that is half-baked.

In other words, no one except the UN, if funded and supported, actually has the interest and the willingness to stay the course. Other countries either achieve their interests or move away. It seems to me it is because of this that the UN continues to be the best bet. It's also because the UN is the only place where all of the other countries with interests can actually come to talk.

The UN is thus the place where G5 Sahel members or the French or whoever sort out their differences and reach agreements. We saw this when the UN initially did not want to back the G5 Sahel force; then there were discussions in the corridors and there was some backing provided.

The UN continues to be the place where the various actors with specific national interests can actually talk to one another. No other organization or actor can provide that kind of convening power.

9:40 a.m.

NDP

Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC

People we've had before the committee and others involved in the discussions about Mali say that there is no peace to keep. All of you made reference challenging that notion.

I guess I'll start with Professor Zahar and then let the other two chime in on that question. Is there a peace to keep?

9:40 a.m.

Professor and Research Director of the Peace Operations Network, Université de Montreal, As an Individual

Dr. Marie-Joëlle Zahar

It is fragile. There have been improvements in the last couple of months. That is after two years of difficult implementation of the peace process, but there have been substantial improvements in the last couple of months.

There are challenges that are not necessarily related to the political actors of the conflict but to the emergence of new actors, particularly in the centre of Mali. Is it a situation of post-conflict? No, it's not, but no UN peacekeeping peace mission was really a full situation of post-conflict. Hybridity is the nature of the situations into which the UN deploys. Going back to what Carolyn said earlier, otherwise we would not need deployments. We deploy in places because there are needs and because without the deployment, the slide back to insecurity and open warfare is a real possibility.

9:40 a.m.

NDP

Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC

Ms. McAskie, would you comment?

9:40 a.m.

Former Special Representative of the Secretary General and Head of the United Nations Peacekeeping Mission in Burundi, As an Individual

Carolyn McAskie

Your question is a very good example of why using the word “peacekeeping” lets us fall into a bit of a trap. If we're only going to go once there's a peace, why are we going?

The modern-day concept of peace operations is to help create the peace environment and, as long as we continue to call the military arm the peacekeepers, to bring in the peacekeepers to ensure that security is available to create the environment for peace discussions and provide the security to enable the participants to come to the table.

Right now there is a fragile peace to keep, but around the edges it's pretty messy. Those are, as Marie-Joëlle has explained graphically, unfortunate characteristics of current conflicts.

Is there a peace to keep? That's not the question, as far as I'm concerned.

9:40 a.m.

NDP

Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC

Professor Dorn, would you comment? Just don't make eye contact with the chair.

9:40 a.m.

Some hon. members

Oh, oh!

9:40 a.m.

Prof. Walter Dorn

Mali is not Afghanistan. It's not a war zone. MINUSMA is not a counterterrorism mission. There is some peace to keep. There is a peace process that should be upheld. There are child soldiers who need to be rescued.

What we need are the types of skills we saw from the Toronto police officer on Friday, whereby we can go into situations and de-escalate them.

9:40 a.m.

NDP

Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC

Thank you.

9:40 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Stephen Fuhr

Dr. Zahar, I'm sensitive to your time issues, and this is a fascinating panel, so unless I can convince you to stay, I....

9:40 a.m.

Professor and Research Director of the Peace Operations Network, Université de Montreal, As an Individual

Dr. Marie-Joëlle Zahar

I wish I could stay. I would actually offend your colleagues at Global Affairs, who are waiting for me.

9:40 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Stephen Fuhr

I'm going to suspend for two seconds because I'd like to say goodbye, and then we'll resume in about 60 seconds.

9:45 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Stephen Fuhr

Welcome back.

We have one last seven-minute question. I'm going to give the floor to MP Robillard.

The floor is yours.

9:45 a.m.

Liberal

Yves Robillard Liberal Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses.

Ms. McAskie, as the former special representative of the Secretary General of the United Nations, can you tell me what types and level of resources and personnel the United Nations needs most from Canada for peacekeeping operations?

9:45 a.m.

Former Special Representative of the Secretary General and Head of the United Nations Peacekeeping Mission in Burundi, As an Individual

Carolyn McAskie

That is either a difficult question or a rather easy one. One could say that the United Nations is in need of everything, whether it is in Mali, the headquarters in New York, or elsewhere.

For starters, I believe that the UN needs properly trained armed forces, like Canada's armed forces. I believe that the Canadian Armed Forces would be an extraordinary asset to the United Nations. That almost goes without saying.

Personally, I would also say that the United Nations needs Canada's policy and development analysis capacity, given the longstanding relationship between Mali and Canada. Canada knows a lot about Mali's history and its current situation. I believe that we should seek out those types of people to offer their services to the UN. They could work in key positions, not only as part of a Canadian mission, but also as part of the UN mission. I think it is very important for the UN mission to have access to people with extensive experience, many years of experience, and we have that. That is very important.

I would like to add a third point, which my colleague Walter Dorn mentioned in his remarks. There are no Canadians in the Office of Military Affairs, in UN peacekeeping operations, in New York. That is something that should be remedied. The fact that we have no one in that office means that we do not have an opportunity to contribute to mission development, long-term planning, or support for field missions. As Ms. Gallant was saying, this impacts chain of command issues. We cannot criticize problems within the chain of command if we do not have anyone in the chain of command. We therefore need Canadians in the chain of command. That could also give us access to privileged information.

Those are the three things that I think are most important.

9:45 a.m.

Liberal

Yves Robillard Liberal Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

Thank you.

My next question is for either of you.

What types of reforms— administrative, institutional, political, financial, or other—are needed to ensure the effectiveness and success of the UN's peacekeeping architecture?

9:50 a.m.

Former Special Representative of the Secretary General and Head of the United Nations Peacekeeping Mission in Burundi, As an Individual

Carolyn McAskie

I'm sorry, but I'm not even going to try to answer that question. I retired from the UN in 2008. I do somewhat follow what is happening with UN files by talking to my colleagues, but you will be hearing from a senior UN representative and I think he will be able to provide you with a better update.

All that I can say is that the UN's peacekeeping process has evolved rapidly and dramatically over the past three decades. The UN is very aware of what needs to be done, but it lacks government support and resources.

I cannot give you any information about administrative or financial reforms. However, I can tell you that the UN always needs more money.

9:50 a.m.

Prof. Walter Dorn

I think that the UN also needs Canadian leaders, like Ms. McAskie.

With regard to reforms, there is a lack of capacity in a number of areas. I work in technology in peacekeeping, and I hope that Canada will be able to help. There is a conference coming up in Berlin in three weeks, and I hope that Canada will send a representative.

With regarding to financing, there is a major need for voluntary funds for countries and for rapid deployment. Countries need to be able to send troops after one or two months, not after a year or two.

9:50 a.m.

Liberal

Yves Robillard Liberal Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

Given that UN Security Council resolutions establishing peacekeeping mandates are often carried out by organizations other than the UN, such as the African Union operation in Somalia or the NATO mission in Afghanistan, are other organizations more effective at carrying out Security Council mandates in some situations? If so, why?

9:50 a.m.

Former Special Representative of the Secretary General and Head of the United Nations Peacekeeping Mission in Burundi, As an Individual

Carolyn McAskie

Once again, it depends on the situation.

I can give you an excellent example of my experience in Burundi. Remember, I was there in 2004, when the UN mission was launched and the Security Council resolution was passed. However, the process was initiated by the former president of Tanzania, whose name escapes me at the moment. No wait. Now I remember. His name was Julius Nyerere. I don't know how I could have forgotten that because he is one of my heroes. He was the leader of a country like Tanzania and he decided that peace was the most important thing. He welcomed hundreds of thousands of refugees from Rwanda and Burundi to his country. After handing his authority over to his successor, he initiated the peace process for Rwanda and Burundi. That continued for 10 or 15 years. It was the African regional group's support for the peace process that really put pressure on Burundi in a way that the UN was unable to do.

Other organizations therefore have a role to play. The UN is central, but the support of countries in the region is vital. It is impossible to continue without it.