National Defence Committee on Jan. 29th, 2021

[MGen Dany Fortin]

Madam Chair, as I mentioned, I had discussions in December with U.S. General Perna of Operation Warp Speed. We exchanged information that was more focused on our respective responsibilities.

As far as comparing with other countries goes, I have not had an opportunity or I have perhaps not taken the opportunity to speak with other countries' representatives about this. This said, our systems are different. We have 13 provinces and territories, in addition to federal entities with federal populations, such as the Correctional Service of Canada and the Canadian Armed Forces.

This varies from one country to another, but I still believe that sharing certain lessons and learning from others' lessons is beneficial. We will consider this approach.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

That's great. Thank you very much, Major-General Fortin.

I will continue to focus on the international scene. I don't know whether this concerns you, but that's why we are here.

Will the Canadian Armed Forces distribute COVID-19 vaccine doses as part of international humanitarian assistance through Operation Vector or are those really two separate things?

[MGen Dany Fortin]

Madam Chair, I will begin by saying that Canada agrees with COVAX. In that respect, it is possible for Canada to help distribute doses, which may be shipped from the outside to the outside, or from Canada to the outside. That remains to be determined. When it's time to look at the issue in detail, we will consider the tools at our disposal, be they contractual or part of Government of Canada resources.

As for the Canadian Armed Forces providing support abroad, I will have to turn to my colleague, time permitting.

[MGen Mark Misener]

Madam Chair, our efforts abroad are really used to support the Canadian Armed Forces members deployed overseas. We want to ensure to support vaccine-related operations.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Okay. Thank you very much, gentlemen.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Garrison, please.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I want to return to the question of the threat to delivery of vaccine supplies based on where they're being produced. Of course, I think I implied earlier that I would certainly like to see us restore our research and development and vaccine production capabilities in Canada, but in the short term, if I'm not mistaken, the supplies of Moderna are being produced in Switzerland, and therefore would not be subject to this possible threatened blockage by the EU.

Is that correct, General Fortin?

[MGen Dany Fortin]

I can tell you that this information is in fact correct in terms of where Moderna produces. It's a global company, a global manufacturer, but in Europe they produce the product that we are going to receive. I am told that it is manufactured in Switzerland, filled and packaged in Spain, and stored and distributed out of Belgium.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Thank you. I think we can find some reassurance in that. When people refer to Europe, we maybe need to be a bit more specific.

Also, I just want to confirm a feeling of reassurance. This morning Novartis announced that it reached agreement with Pfizer to produce vaccine from their Swiss facilities by the second quarter of this year. I'm just wondering if that might be a help to Canada, that we might be able to source the Pfizer vaccine, starting in the second quarter, from their Swiss agreement with Novartis and therefore, again, mitigate the threat to the supply of vaccine in Canada.

[MGen Dany Fortin]

I would say that's entirely possible. Pfizer-BioNTech is a global manufacturer. They have companies and sub-companies around the world. As to where that would be made and whether a company could leverage that to produce vaccines that are aimed for the Canadian market, I would have to refer to Public Services and Procurement Canada for the details of that and to Health Canada if it changes anything with regard to the regulatory approval.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Bezan, please.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

General Fortin, you've said a number of times that you're confident that Pfizer will live up to their contractual obligation to deliver four million vaccines to Canada, but yet yesterday, in the graphs that were provided, the provinces were saying they're getting only 3.5 million vaccines. Why is there that half-million discrepancy in vaccines?

[MGen Dany Fortin]

I can certainly expand on that, if given the time. The calculation at this particular juncture, where we are at an inflection point with the manufacturer, is that Pfizer assures us that they will provide four million doses by 31 March.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

General, is that based upon six doses per vial or five doses per vial? What happens if Health Canada doesn't approve that extra dose in each vial, especially in light of the fact that Manitoba, where I'm at, is saying that they get six doses per vial only 75% of the time.

[MGen Dany Fortin]

Yes, I understand the challenge for sure. Again, Pfizer assures us that we will get four million doses by the end of March, full stop. How we're going to get there remains to be determined, because our calculations, until further notice, until Health Canada approves, assuming Health Canada approves, the six doses per vial and when this would be implemented, will impact the quantities we will receive on a week-to-week basis. The end goal of 31 March remains four million doses, and that is what Pfizer is working toward.

As to the five and six doses, I think we'll see how it pans out, as Health Canada is reviewing Pfizer's submission at this time.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

I hope they take into consideration that both Manitoba, and I know Alberta, have been trying to squeeze six doses per vial but haven't got it 75% of the time.

Are the contracts with Moderna and Pfizer binding or do they have escape clauses if they fail to deliver?

[MGen Dany Fortin]

Unfortunately, I don't have that level of fidelity and understanding of the specifics of the contract. That's very much with PSPC although the Public Health Agency is the client. I'd have to take this on notice and come back with a written answer.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Okay, I'm shifting gears just slightly.

General Fortin, in your earlier remarks you said you have 52 members of the Canadian Armed Forces with you who have been seconded to the Public Health Agency of Canada. I'm surprised you didn't have anyone there, as earlier you were asked by other members about anybody from either military police or Canadian Forces intelligence command to deal with the potential of a threat in the shipment of product coming to Canada, and cyber of course, as well as domestic possibilities of product getting diverted or stolen.

Why don't you have that embedded with you in the Public Health Agency of Canada?

[MGen Dany Fortin]

Yes, that's a very good question.

I would summarize it by saying that with CAF members, we are bolstering capacity at the agency in the areas where we bring unique experience and capacity, for instance, organizing operations, information technology. I have a medical adviser. I have a pharmacist who also advises me, a communications team and so on.

We leverage civilian law enforcement agencies in that enterprise. It is not in the mandate of the military police to advise on civilian matters.

In terms of intelligence, there's a clean demarcation where we leverage the non-military security enterprise to look at the different threat scenarios.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Okay, I would hope that comes from the Canadian Armed Forces, whether it's Canadian Forces intelligence or from military police.

On international shipments for example, we did see PPE that was supposed to come to Canada diverted to the United States and other countries. We don't want to see that happen when the real scramble comes on who gets the vaccines as they're leaving, and have planes diverted. I'm hoping there is some control and monitoring, as well as presence on those shipments, to ensure they arrive here in Canada.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

All right, thank you very much.

We'll move to Madam Vandenbeld, please.

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Thank you very much.

I want to thank General Fortin and General Misener for all the work you're doing, including the testimony here today, and through you, the entire defence team, and in particular those who are at the Public Health Agency of Canada, which is, of course, in my riding of Ottawa West—Nepean.

General Fortin, I'd like to follow up on a comment you made earlier. Correct me if I'm not quoting you correctly. Obviously, we know that CAF is incredibly well-suited for this kind of major operation, both in organizational capacity and skills sets. You said you urged the provinces to use the federal coordination capacity. Do you have any indication that there are provinces that may not be asking for or using the full capability that the CAF has to offer?

[MGen Dany Fortin]

That's not totally what I meant, so I may not have expressed myself properly.

What I meant is not so much the CAF capability but what we at the agency have brought to bear to distribute at scale. For instance, companies like the logistics service provider joint enterprise FedEx and Innomar, that Canada has a contract with to distribute all vaccines but Pfizer-BioNTech. They are a legit, robust transportation shipping company with experience and expertise with pharmaceuticals. They are distributing across the country to points of delivery that provinces and territories have identified.

Some provinces and territories wish to have more and leverage that more. Others prefer to have a mix of what they have in their own system and leverage the federal contract. Where they identify gaps and risk areas, particularly as we scale up with millions of vaccines per quarter, we continue to encourage them to leverage to the maximum extent what we can do with the federal contract and subcontractors controlled by FedEx and Innomar.

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Thank you for that clarification.

I note there were Canadian Armed Forces personnel in the Public Health Agency of Canada even early this spring. I made a visit there with the Prime Minister and had a chance to speak with some of them.

Could you talk about the long-term presence of CAF since the beginning of this pandemic with the Public Health Agency of Canada, the ability to embed and coordinate well with them, and the specific kind of work you're doing, particularly, in terms of advance planning?

For instance, when did the planning start for this particular rollout of vaccine, and what are you doing now in terms of the planning for when we do start to receive those 20 million doses in the second quarter you referred to?

[MGen Dany Fortin]

I don't think I'll have enough time to sufficiently get to the bottom of what we do every day. We can be very proud of the work the team has been doing. Since the winter, the agency has realized the size, scope and impact of the pandemic. For example, CAF provided measures and assistance at the agency in terms of accounting for, receiving and distributing the PPE.

Furthermore, in the summer period, there was a bit less of a presence. In late summer/early fall, it was determined there was going to be a need for specialists to look into the logistical challenges regarding the distribution of millions of vaccines in short order. At the time, it was anticipated the vaccines would arrive, and we would be in a position to distribute as early as January 1.

Of course, we now know, for a number of reasons, we have been able to really build, in a very pragmatic and deliberate way, all the systems, build a national operation centre for vaccine rollout, and build a team at the agency with not only CAF members but also members from other departments and agencies to look at all the facets of the distribution of vaccines.