Evidence of meeting #15 for National Defence in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was allegations.
A video is available from Parliament.
4:15 p.m.
Liberal
4:15 p.m.
Liberal
Larry Bagnell Liberal Yukon, YT
Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
Thank you to the witnesses for being here today.
We all understand the need for and importance of ensuring that those who come forward with allegations of sexual harassment and assault have to not only be encouraged to come forward and not be afraid to speak out, but also that when they do speak out, they are heard.
How is the Privy Council Office ensuring that people who come forward with harassment claims are heard and protected from any sort of professional reprisal?
4:15 p.m.
Deputy Clerk, Privy Council Office
Madam Chair, could my colleague Ms. Sherman answer this question?
4:15 p.m.
Deputy Secretary to the Cabinet, Senior Personnel and Public Service Renewal, Privy Council Office
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Like all federal departments, the Privy Council Office, as an employer, takes the importance of a safe workplace for our employees very seriously. We do have a broader role as well, in terms of my own responsibilities in respect of Governor in Council appointees who work in numerous organizations across the federal family.
We do have terms and conditions of employment for GICs. Those set expectations for GIC appointees in terms of a level of conduct that is respectful and in line with all the federal requirements, such as those set out in the Treasury Board policies against harassment and workplace violence. We adhere to those kinds of guidelines, policies and practices in how and when we manage GIC appointees. We try to ensure that there are known avenues, such as ombudspersons, in place or accessible to people.
In 2017, the Privy Council did conduct a review, entitled “Safe Workspaces”, which was published and shared widely with Governor in Council appointees and indeed with all federal departments and leadership across the enterprise. It outlined some of the policies, procedures and the legislative frameworks that are in place. Broadly speaking, they are effective. They provide many avenues of recourse for people.
We also understood that there are situations where people don't come forward. There were several recommendations out of that report that apply across the government, as well as in our own situation as a department and Privy Council Office.
It is about getting better information, building awareness about some of the avenues that people have for bringing issues forward and making sure that we are listening and providing people access to the various recourse mechanisms.
We take it very seriously. In terms of practices and procedures, we do make sure that all of those guidelines are followed by GIC appointees. We offer information to them, in terms of how they manage. When there are complaints about GIC appointees, my office does get involved. We will work with the portfolio departments that may be involved as well. We make sure that we take the appropriate steps to investigate where there are allegations. Where there are not allegations but concerns, we to try to make sure that we are doing everything we can to open that conversation for people to feel comfortable coming forward.
4:20 p.m.
Liberal
Larry Bagnell Liberal Yukon, YT
Thank you. I appreciate that and all those efforts.
Still, from the testimony today, it appears like a lot of work still needs to be done as we improve the processes you're talking about in encouraging people to come forward and feel comfortable coming forward without fear of reprisal.
Can you talk about how we could improve the system when it comes to sexual harassment, assault allegations or even rumours?
4:20 p.m.
Deputy Secretary to the Cabinet, Senior Personnel and Public Service Renewal, Privy Council Office
Absolutely. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Ms. Tremblay, do you want to answer this question?
4:20 p.m.
Deputy Clerk, Privy Council Office
Maybe I could start and you could complete it.
I think it's a very good point. We spoke about barriers. We spoke about having to change the culture. We have to improve the process. We have to increase accountability.
Recently, in order to strengthen policies that protect federal public service employees and to ensure that violence and harassment would not be tolerated, condoned or ignored within the public service, the Treasury Board Secretariat issued the new directive on the prevention and resolution of workplace harassment and violence. That directive is in line with the recent amendments to the Canada Labour Code concerning federally regulated workplaces.
The directive requires departments to improve harassment prevention and the way they respond to harassment, and to support those affected by harassment and violence in the federal public service. It also requires departments to investigate all harassment and violence complaints in their organization, to identify them and to report them.
We continue to work closely with our bargaining agents to promote a work environment that is positive, safe and healthy across our workplaces to foster a diverse, inclusive and accessible public service.
This new directive came into force on January 1, 2021. We are already working on it. Much like other initiatives, like the recent creation of the Canadian Centre for Diversity and Inclusion, this directive is one of the important changes we are implementing within the federal public service to help all public servants—including those who are most vulnerable—remove barriers and make cultural changes that will encourage victims or people who feel wronged to file a complaint and to have full trust in us to deal with the complaint.
4:25 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Karen McCrimmon
Thank you very much, Ms. Tremblay.
We will go on to Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe, please.
4:25 p.m.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Good afternoon, Ms. Sherman and Ms. Tremblay. Thank you very much for joining us today.
Ms. Tremblay, when you were appointed, in September, did you start from scratch or were you briefed on the ongoing files?
4:25 p.m.
Deputy Clerk, Privy Council Office
Thank you very much for the question.
I was appointed to a dual role: that of deputy clerk and that of deputy minister of intergovernmental affairs. My mandate is to mainly work on federal-provincial-territorial issues in the context of the COVID-19 pandemic. This situation is unique. Although I am aware of the policies that apply in the types of issues we're discussing today, PCO has the expertise required to provide expert advice. That is more the role of my colleague Ms. Sherman, who is with us today. I would like to....
4:25 p.m.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
Sorry to interrupt you. I certainly don't want to be impolite. My question was about whether, when you took office, you were briefed on the ongoing files at your workplace.
4:25 p.m.
Deputy Clerk, Privy Council Office
I support the Clerk of the Privy Council in his role of Deputy Minister to the Prime Minister. He is the one who decides on which files I will work and on which files to brief me.
4:25 p.m.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
That's great.
You said earlier that you could not answer certain questions because you were appointed only in December. Does that mean the file we are discussing today was already being handled at PCO?
4:25 p.m.
Deputy Clerk, Privy Council Office
As this is not a file I was briefed on, I cannot answer.
4:25 p.m.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
Okay.
Can you expect the Minister of National Defence to inform you of ongoing allegations? I am talking about allegations in general, and not about this allegation in particular.
4:25 p.m.
Deputy Clerk, Privy Council Office
I will turn to my colleague Ms. Sherman for an answer to this specific or technical question.
4:25 p.m.
Deputy Secretary to the Cabinet, Senior Personnel and Public Service Renewal, Privy Council Office
Thank you.
I would just clarify that the PCO's role with respect to other departments and complaints or issues of harassment and the role that I, in particular, carry out in support of the Prime Minister and other ministers is about the Governor in Council appointees, not generally. In terms of the department head, a deputy minister of a department would be responsible for investigations or issues that were within the department—for public servants in particular.
Our role here is about the Governor in Council appointees—
4:25 p.m.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
To your knowledge, does the Minister of National Defence have to normally inform your office when allegations are made, yes or no?
4:25 p.m.
Deputy Secretary to the Cabinet, Senior Personnel and Public Service Renewal, Privy Council Office
I would say that with respect to a Governor in Council appointee—if there were a case of a GIC appointee—within a portfolio of a department, we would work with them, yes.
Our role, in terms of managing GIC appointees in a general way, ultimately would be that we would want to support that department in terms of a process around the complaints so that if there is an allegation, there is, as my colleague mentioned, procedural fairness and a bias-free and independent investigation.
The outcome of that investigation is very important in terms of informing next steps. Our job in supporting both the minister and the Prime Minister around the GIC appointee is to make sure that information is collected and that the investigation is undertaken in a way that will enable us to provide advice on next steps.
So, yes, we could be generally aware of a case of a GIC appointee.
4:30 p.m.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
Thank you.
If you learn of such allegations concerning a high-ranking individual, who is required to act in cabinet?
4:30 p.m.
Deputy Clerk, Privy Council Office
Madam Chair, can I let Ms. Sherman answer?
4:30 p.m.
Deputy Secretary to the Cabinet, Senior Personnel and Public Service Renewal, Privy Council Office
Thank you.
I think the question is this: “Who would be aware at cabinet?” I think that while an investigation of particular allegations against a GIC appointee is under way, that information is closely held in the sense that we are working to ensure procedural fairness to protect confidentiality for all parties. The investigation that takes place is, indeed, for the purpose of determining whether or not there are findings of harassment or misconduct or whatever it may be. It is up to the minister who is responsible for that portfolio—perhaps a Crown corporation within a portfolio, for example—and then the minister would make recommendations to the Governor in Council in terms of next steps.
Sorry, I had a bit of reverberation there. Could you hear me?