National Defence Committee on March 12th, 2021

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Were you worried—

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

I am afraid Mr. Fortin—

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Madam Chair, as you know, there are lots of delays because of interpretation.

In many committees, people get a few extra seconds of speaking time when questions are asked in French and answered in English. Francophone members are always at a disadvantage because of these delays. With all due respect, I would ask you to give us a little more time during the next round of questions. Thank you in advance.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Thank you, Mr. Fortin.

I always try to give a little bit more time because of the interpretation issue, but I'll pay even more attention to that. Thank you for bringing it to my attention.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

We will go on to Mr. Garrison, please.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I want to return to saying very clearly to the minister that I have always had the utmost respect for his service in the Canadian Forces and, in particular, his service in Afghanistan. I think the minister knows that. I am not sure where that reaction comes from, although I have to say that I did see it once before when I raised questions about his failure to order an inquiry into the transfer of Afghan detainees.

I will assure you that what I am asking about is what you did or did not do as minister. It's not about your previous service.

I raised the question about who knew what about General Vance because I have been told literally dozens of times that General Vance's indiscretions were the worst-kept secret in the Canadian military. During the course of this hearing today, I have actually received messages from veterans conveying that once again. It is very hard for me to accept that you knew nothing about this and that the Prime Minister knew nothing.

Mr. Baker says that there is no evidence that the Prime Minister knew about these allegations. The Prime Minister said so himself in question period. He said so himself in his presser—that he knew there were allegations. He just didn't know the details.

Mr. Minister, I want to ask you this: In addition to contacting the Privy Council Office, did you or your chief of staff inform the Prime Minister's office of these allegations?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

First of all, as the Prime Minister has stated, he was informed that I had raised those concerns with the Privy Council Office, but he learned of those complaints through the media.

Also, Madam Chair, given the preamble that the member stated, I'm sorry. If you had any information on this, you should have reported it.

I'm here to tell you that, no, I did not have any of the information. If, at any time, any type of information was brought forward, I would always bring it to the appropriate authorities—and I always have—regardless of rank and position.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

I just want to go back to the very specific question. Did you personally raise this with the Prime Minister or did your chief of staff raise it with the Prime Minister's Office?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

No politician should ever get involved in any type of investigation. The information here was given to the appropriate authorities. That is what we need to trust.

I understand that in politics these things go on, but I can assure you that I have always kept the people who are coming forward at the heart of everything that we do. It is making sure that we follow the proper process, so that they can have a just outcome. The last thing you want in a case when somebody has the courage to come forward is for somebody to mess up the process and they don't get the justice that they deserve.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Well, actually, the last thing—

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Thank you very much.

It's on to Madam Gallant, please.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Madam Chair, thank you very much.

Through you to the minister, did you request information on the Op Honour tracking system? Do you have access to it?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

I don't have personal access to it, but I do have regular briefings when I speak with Dr. Preston—a number of times—to get updates on how things are going, to see the progress, to look at the changes that need to be made and, more importantly, to ask what the resources are that we need to provide.

As the Minister of National Defence, my direction is very clear. I want to make sure that resources are given to the appropriate places, especially when it comes to Dr. Preston or if there are any policy changes, so that action and progress can continue.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Minister, you said that you directed the ombudsman to investigate the allegations against the CDS. Would you kindly provide this committee with the directive that you gave indicating that he should investigate?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

First of all, I'm not directing the ombudsman to conduct investigations. I advised him of where he could go for that information. In fact, it is actually clearly stated in his own directives what the ombudsman can do. For example, the ombudsman can get advice from the judge advocate general, can go to the provost marshal and can also go to the independent police. If you'd like, I could have my JAG here to explain that information to you.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Thank you, Minister. We know that the CDS is at the top of that chain of command, so it doesn't work.

Who—

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Actually, no. I just want to explain that. The ombudsman is actually independent of the chain of command. The chain of command also includes the chief of the defence staff.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Okay. Who can direct the CFNIS to open an investigation?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

That is only they themselves. No one should interfere with CFNIS—

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

The ombudsman could not do that.

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

—for an investigation.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

He could not start an investigation into the criminal allegations himself.

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

No, but the information.... In the directives to the ombudsman, as information comes in, the ombudsman can go to the provost marshal, which is the military police, and can go to the judge advocate general for more advice as well, so any criminal investigation can be started by the military police when they receive information. However, the information that the ombudsman receives is the internal investigation, and then they go further out from there, but as Mr. Walbourne said, he knows his job and what needed to be done.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

He sought direction from you, given the rank of this individual.