Evidence of meeting #20 for National Defence in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was ombudsman.
A video is available from Parliament.
4:30 p.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
Well, it's because Madam Deschamps called for this.
4:30 p.m.
Liberal
Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC
You're telling me to take action but I'm telling you it's interference, and you're saying that my doing this is creating this unicorn. I'm sorry. You're trying to paint me into a corner and trying to paint this picture.
Madam Chair, I'm not going to let the member try to do this. It is absolutely wrong. I'll be honest with you. I know the member well and for him to do this I find it wrong. I'm happy to answer questions, but the line of questioning he's taking is trying to tarnish.... If there is legitimate wrong, I'm happy to answer those questions, but he's not allowing me to.
You can't paint a picture and then expect me not to respond to that.
4:30 p.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
I'm asking about the recommendation of Madam Deschamps.
4:30 p.m.
Liberal
Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC
I was trying. The deputy minister would have given you information on that if you would have allowed it.
4:30 p.m.
Liberal
4:30 p.m.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
I'll just follow up on Mr. Garrison's comments. I want to talk about the directive and the role of ombudsman.
It says right in the DAOD 5047-1 under part 4 that the ombudsman “(a) shall investigate any matter referred to the Ombudsman by written direction of the Minister”.
A memo was circulated by the media that came through access to information. It's a memo from the Privy Council Office, dated March 16, 2018. It says here, in the very last bullet:
The directive suggests this would prevent the Ombudsperson from investigating. Typically, the Ombudsperson would investigate a complaint to the effect that one of those processes failed a complainant.
That is that they didn't give consent.
Minister, do you believe that? You keep blaming the ombudsman, but until he had consent from the complainant, he couldn't move forward. He also needed written direction from you. Did you provide that written direction?
4:30 p.m.
Liberal
Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC
That's not true. Just because you read that directive here, that investigation does not include investigation powers when it comes to claims like this, especially when it comes to criminal or police investigations.
That is absolutely wrong. The ombudsman does not need my permission to conduct—
4:30 p.m.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
You're confirming then, Minister, that the ombudsman can't direct, but you can. Why didn't you direct it to an outside police force to make sure it was investigated properly?
4:30 p.m.
Liberal
Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC
We made sure the information that the person had can actually go directly. Me getting involved in the evidentiary chain is wrong.
JAG, I don't know if you want to add to—
4:30 p.m.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
I want to ask questions to the minister.
Michael Wernick, the former clerk of the Privy Council, has confirmed he was aware on March 2 and was part of the memo that was circulated in the media through access to information.
Did you ever speak to the former clerk of the Privy Council about these allegations around General Vance? Are you aware of anyone else from your office who was speaking to him?
4:30 p.m.
Liberal
Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC
I did not speak to the former clerk regarding this because my asking any more questions about any type of allegation or investigation like this would be considered interference.
4:30 p.m.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
Is it okay for your political staff—your former chief of staff, Zita Astravas—to have those conversations on your behalf with the ombudsman and with the Privy Council Office?
4:30 p.m.
Liberal
Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC
Let's be clear here. My chief of staff made sure the Privy Council was informed. That's exactly what we needed to do because, as the member knows, because he stated that he knows the National Defence Act extremely well and he was the parliamentary secretary for national defence....
By the way, I have a few questions regarding his actions at—
4:30 p.m.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
I get to ask the questions here, Minister, as you know.
4:30 p.m.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
Minister, I just want to go forward.
We know that on March 5, your former chief of staff emailed the ombudsman to follow up on a conversation she had with Janine Sherman. How many people in your office were aware that Ms. Sherman had followed up with Mr. Walbourne?
4:30 p.m.
Liberal
Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC
Our job was—as my chief of staff had forwarded the information—to make sure that was done. At that time, we needed to make sure that the independence of the investigation was to occur. Once we had confirmation that they had received the information, our involvement was to be left out, because our getting further involved is an impediment of the investigation.
What we needed to do was to make sure it got there, and in Mr. Walbourne's own testimony, they contacted him the next day.
4:35 p.m.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
At any point were there any meetings or conference calls between senior members of your office or the deputy minister's office and the Privy Council Office on this topic?
4:35 p.m.
Liberal
Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC
I can speak on my behalf of my team that we had made sure we did a follow-up to make sure that the Privy Council had the appropriate information, and they did.
4:35 p.m.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
Were any of your political staff or staff from the Prime Minister's Office involved in those meetings and conference calls with the Privy Council Office, the ombudsman's office potentially and/or the deputy minister's office?
4:35 p.m.
Liberal
Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC
As I stated, me, the Prime Minister or any politician should not get involved in an investigation. What we needed to do—and we did—was to make sure the information got to the Privy Council Office, who are responsible for governor in council appointments, and you obviously would know this—
4:35 p.m.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
I get quite a kick out of this memo from Privy Council that keeps referring to General Vance as a GIC appointee instead of using the name, so it's kind of like code words like we had with Admiral Mark Norman.
We know that sometime in March, your former chief of staff contacted Elder Marques, who was a senior adviser to the Prime Minister, regarding these allegations against General Vance. Were you aware that senior staff from your office were also talking to the Prime Minister's Office? How were they involved?
4:35 p.m.
Liberal
Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC
During the time when this incident took place, my chief of staff not only contacted the Privy Council Office but also contacted Mr. Marques to inform him of what was transpiring.
4:35 p.m.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
You and the Prime Minister had your first conversation about General Vance—
