National Defence Committee on March 12th, 2021

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Go ahead, Mr. Robillard.

[Yves Robillard, Liberal, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

As a member of this committee, I want to have the answer from the minister and not from the member. Please be polite and let the minister talk.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Madam Alleslev, continue.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

I will ask my question again.

Minister, whom did you follow up with to ensure that the investigation of the chief of the defence staff was under way, so that you could take appropriate disciplinary action, if required?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

As the Minister of National Defence, I do not follow up because that would be interfering in an investigation.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

By law you are accountable to make sure the chief of the defence staff is behaving in accordance with the code of service discipline.

How do you do that if you don't have the information, follow up on it and ensure that military members can serve with a CDS who is in accordance with the law?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

I'm not supposed to get that information. That would be inappropriate.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Is it against the code of service discipline for a senior officer—

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Thank you, but your time is up.

We will move on to Mr. Baker, please.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for being here today.

I wanted to share something, Minister, to follow up on what you were saying to Mr. Garrison. I have spent some time studying your career. I know you have spent your career protecting people as a Vancouver detective and a leader in the Canadian Armed Forces. I also know from the actions you have taken—you have spoken to some of them here today—how committed you are to ensuring that all equity-seeking groups, including women, feel safe and protected. I wanted to thank you for that service, and I wanted to voice my confidence in your work in that regard.

I also wanted to correct the record. I think Mr. Garrison indicated that the Prime Minister knew of allegations. There has been no evidence presented to this committee of that at all, and I think it's highly inappropriate for Mr. Garrison to suggest something of the sort.

I also want to ask you a question, Minister. A tweet from Mercedes Stephenson on March 3, 2021, describes:

...the evidence that the former military Ombudsman is referring to. It is not an allegation of sexual assault. It is the email chain between the then CDS and a then Cpl where he allegedly proposed going to a clothing optional vacation destination.

Can you confirm, Minister, that what the ombudsman tried to show you was not what Kellie Brennan came forward with?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Madam Chair, I don't know the information that was brought forward, because it would have been inappropriate for me to even accept it. It would have been interference in the actual process.

My goal at this time, in any allegation that comes forward, if a chief of defence staff is even mentioned, is to immediately take it extremely seriously, to make sure that it goes to the appropriate authorities for a proper investigation. That is exactly what we have done. I've said a number of times, even in previous years, that regardless of rank and regardless of position, we will take every allegation seriously.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thank you, Minister.

We heard from the ombudsman during his testimony that he was reached out to by the Privy Council Office the very day after he raised his concern with you. Can we assume from this that you took immediate action?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Absolutely. This is where, one, the advice that I gave directly back to the former ombudsman...but also, the reason I had my staff immediately contact the PCO is that this is where the Governor in Council appointments are managed. It was making sure that they knew, and then, if there were any other mechanisms that they had, they could provide the appropriate advice and also look at the allegation. But it was my understanding that no information was provided.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Minister, I know you've spoken to this, but I think this is important to underline, so I will ask you this question. We've heard during our committee hearings from witnesses, from the ombudsman himself, that you could have done a board of inquiry. Could you please explain why you didn't go that route? I think it's really important that people, and the public watching, understand that.

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

I think this is a really important point. There are powers that the Minister of National Defence has, but those powers have to be regulated in a certain way. We're in a rule of law country.

I already stated in my statement the reasons why, but I think it would be even more appropriate if I had the JAG answer that question in more detail.

[Rear-Admiral Geneviève Bernatchez, Judge Advocate General, Canadian Armed Forces, Department of National Defence]

Madam Chair, may I have the floor?

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Go ahead.

[RAdm Geneviève Bernatchez]

Thank you.

First, I would like to specify that I will not comment on the current situation. However, I think it's important to indicate that the publicly available defence administrative order and directive DAOD 7002-0, dealing with boards of inquiry, provides, in paragraph 2.7, that:

2.7 A [board of inquiry]...must not be conducted if any purpose of the [board of inquiry]...is to:

a. obtain evidence relating to a potential breach of the Code of Service Discipline; or

b. assign criminal responsibility.

The reason for this is that any allegation must be handled carefully and in a manner that preserves the ability to conduct a fair and independent disciplinary or criminal investigation, and, if charges are laid, to have those charges prosecuted and tried fairly and in a manner that respects the rights of both the accused and the victim.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Fortin, you have the floor.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Mr. Minister, this is what you said in your testimony.

“I didn't follow up because I wasn't allowed to.”

You didn't follow up. However, you also said that, the next day,

“I had my staff immediately inform PCO.”

My understanding is that you asked your chief of staff or someone in your office to contact PCO to tell them about the situation. Thank you for that information. That gets us somewhere.

After that, Mr. Minister, did you follow up with PCO or ask your chief of staff to do so to see where the investigation was at?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

I did ask to...making sure the connection was made, but we also had to make sure that we stayed out of any type of investigation—asking too many questions—to allow the process to take its course. That's extremely important.

Over time, I do remember asking a number of questions about where things were at. I also knew, at the same time, that they did have the information and that it was being looked at and taken seriously.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

We know that Mr. Walbourne talked to you on March 1, 2018. The next day, there was a phone call between Mr. Walbourne and PCO. After that, how many times did you talk with someone at PCO to see how the complaint was being handled?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Once it was confirmed that the Privy Council Office had the information, this is where I had greater faith that the proper process would take its course.

Over a number of months, I believe I asked a number of times. I don't actually have the exact number of how many times I asked that question, but I did know that they had it and it was being followed up.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

From March 1, 2018, until just recently, nobody heard anything about it. Didn't it worry you that, in 2018, the chief of the defence staff was the subject of a sexual assault or sexual harassment complaint? A complaint was made against the chief of the defence staff in March 2018, but by the end of 2020, nobody had heard about it. Didn't that worry you?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Any allegation is deeply concerning. This is one of the reasons we had to immediately make sure that the appropriate process was actually followed here. Later on I was advised that nothing had come from it.

This is one thing that, regardless, I can only take action based on the information as the proper process takes its course. In this case here, something was followed.