National Defence Committee on March 12th, 2021

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

I don't get involved with investigations. I don't get briefed—

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

You don't get involved, Minister, but it is your responsibility to ensure that they occur, as is the good order and discipline of the Canadian Forces.

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

You are expecting the ultimate power to be given to a minister. That is absolutely wrong. The power to investigate is separate. I completely disagree with your assertions that this should be the case. Independence of the investigation should be done—

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Minister, is it against the code of service discipline for a senior officer to have a sexual relationship with a subordinate?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Any inappropriate behaviour by any member of the Canadian Armed Forces is wrong.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Then you're saying that, yes, it is against the code of service discipline.

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

As I say, any inappropriate behaviour such as this is wrong.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you.

Is there anyone in the Canadian Armed Forces who is not a subordinate of the chief of the defence staff?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Obviously, you know the answer to that. The chief of the defence staff is the top general.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you.

Conservatives called for a freeze on all senior officer promotions and postings to ensure that only deserving behaviour was rewarded, but the general and flag officer promotions were just released.

Can you guarantee that no one on that list is complicit, through their actions or their silence, in any form of sexual or other misconduct?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

First of all, when it comes to promotions, it is important that, one, members who have been working diligently within the Canadian Armed Forces continue to get the recognition they deserve. When it comes to promotions, we do ask the question, in an attestation, whether there has been misconduct in their previous career. Also, making sure there's culture change, we ask, if there was misconduct inside the chain of command and how they dealt with it. We want to make sure that the leaders we're selecting are the ones who will take things seriously.

Those are the things that, in attestations, we have taken seriously. I also have, on the question—

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Thank you very much. The time is up.

We'll go to Mr. Baker, please.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Minister, I have a couple of questions for you. I will try to save 30 seconds for Ms. May to ask a question, so I'll work through this as quickly as I can.

Minister, in Gary Walbourne's testimony, he stated that he was surprised that PCO was reaching out to him. He also stated, in response to a question from Mr. Garrison, that PCO “let the matter drop” after the meeting on March 2.

Subsequent to this testimony, Global News reported that he engaged in a number of email exchanges with PCO regarding the investigation. Amanda Connolly reported that Mr. Walbourne wrote PCO on March 6, 2018, stating as follows:

As with all cases given to the Ombudsman’s office we only move forward with the complainant’s written consent to do so.

According to Connolly's reporting, he also stated:

Options have been proposed I now await directions as to their wishes on how to move forward. Once they have made a decision, and with their permission, I will engage as directed.

It seems to me that Mr. Walbourne's reported actions after the March 1 meeting are not consistent with an individual who was surprised that PCO was investigating the allegations. Do you have any comment on what took place after your conversations with Mr. Walbourne?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Obviously, I can't talk about what took place afterwards. What I can say is that, in Mr. Walbourne's own testimony, even though to my recollection he did not ask for advice, I gave it, which was also to go to the appropriate authorities, including when it comes to PCO, so there shouldn't have been any surprise there.

Also, when an allegation has come forward, we expect anybody to take it seriously and to take it to its furthest conclusion.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thank you, Minister.

We've heard that one option presented by the ombudsman was that you could have pursued confronting former chief of the defence staff General Vance directly about the allegations. Do you have any thoughts on whether that could have been done while maintaining the confidentiality of the complainant?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

There are a lot of people who think the right thing to do is to.... From my own experience as a police officer, when somebody has brought information forward—in this case, they didn't want to have their identity unveiled—going to the actual person when you don't have information could potentially, or absolutely would, jeopardize the investigation. That would be absolutely inappropriate.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thank you, Minister.

Chair, I'd like to turn over the rest of my time to Ms. May. I think about two minutes and a bit remain.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

No, I'm afraid we're actually running out of time. I'm sorry.

[Elizabeth May, Green, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Could I have 30 seconds, please, Madam Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Okay. You can have 30 seconds, Ms. May. Go ahead.

[Elizabeth May, Green, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

I think a lot of fair-minded Canadians have this question in mind, Mr. Minister. I ask this open-heartedly. It appears as a contradiction. On February 19, when you testified to this committee, you said you were “as shocked as everyone” by the allegations of sexual misconduct by defence chief General Vance. We've been told by Gary Walbourne that on March 1, 2018, he told you about them.

I'd like to maintain in my mind that you're both honest men, and I would love you to explain what appears to be a contradiction.

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Thank you for that opportunity, because I don't want anybody to ever think that information was what we heard back then. That was not the case. I didn't know any of that information. That's why I can honestly put hand on heart and say that I was just as shocked.

More importantly, to see that members of our Canadian Armed Forces for two decades were dealing with this...? That was not the meeting that took place on March 1. This is what—

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

I'm sorry. We're running out of time here.

Mr. Fortin, you have the floor.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Minister, a military police officer, Mr. Zillman, was interviewed in a Fifth Estate story. He stated that he was assigned to sexual assault cases. You had recommended the ombudsman turn to them. He stated that officers regularly tried to interfere in his work and that he developed a distrust of the military justice system.

What can you tell us about that, Minister?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Madam Chair, that's absolutely unacceptable. Regardless of rank and regardless of your position, no one can interfere with an investigation of police. The military police are independent of the chain of command. They also have the ability—