Evidence of meeting #20 for National Defence in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was ombudsman.
A video is available from Parliament.
1:50 p.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
Again, I do appreciate your careful testimony and your avoidance of speculation. I also don't want to ask any questions that lead to revealing details of incidents.
What struck me in your recount of the events here is the fact that both these incidents you're talking about involve a senior officer within the chain of command. That's what seems to have created the difficulty in figuring out how to deal with them appropriately.
Would that be a fair statement?
1:50 p.m.
LCdr Raymond Trotter
Yes, sir, and I do have an additional portion to explain about that other incident if you want me to relay that to you.
1:55 p.m.
LCdr Raymond Trotter
Okay.
After that female complainant came forward to me to make the report about the red room incident, as I understood it, someone else came forward about the incident. However, there was no entry in the database about it. I was the first one to put an entry into the database, and the investigation of the complaint was assigned.... There was a separate complaint.
That was assigned to a chief petty officer who is a subordinate to the senior officer who made the initial comment about the red room, who is the respondent. When I raised the concerns about the conflict of interest of the investigator—the chief petty officer—a senior officer who I was speaking with minimized the incident, saying the respondent didn't know what he was talking about and wasn't referring to a sexually explicit movie. It seemed to me that this was prejudging and predetermining an outcome.
It was a little later that I contacted a separate senior person at formation headquarters on the coast here who's a civil servant but also a retired naval captain. When I contacted them about my report about OPHTAS to make sure that all the reporting I had made was correct, that senior person raised his voice and spoke to me in a very demeaning manner, indicating—and pardon my language—that I had fucked up and I had ruined the respondent's career over nothing.
1:55 p.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
In earlier testimony you referred to your feeling that Operation Honour wasn't fully accepted by everyone within the Canadian Forces, so is this kind of reaction what you're talking about when you say that you feel that it's not always fully accepted?
1:55 p.m.
LCdr Raymond Trotter
I'm sorry. Could you pose the question? I didn't understand whether there was a question there.
1:55 p.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
You said earlier in testimony that you felt that Operation Honour wasn't always fully accepted within the Canadian Forces by everyone, and I'm asking whether you believe this reaction to your attempt to report something, which was clearly required by the policies laid out, is an example of that lack of full acceptance, or maybe full understanding, of what is required to stamp out sexual misconduct.
1:55 p.m.
LCdr Raymond Trotter
I think there are two parts to that answer, sir.
The first part is the acceptance of Operation Honour amongst the majority of the forces, the working class of the forces, and the veracity of it and whether it's working. Then the second part of that answer is, when reporting on senior officers within OPHTAS, which is the reporting mechanism for Operation Honour, it almost seemed to me, as a result of that phone call, that there is a dual standard of reporting in OPHTAS such that maybe if it's a sergeant it would be okay, but if it's a colonel or captain(N), it's not okay to put that sort of name into that central repository.
1:55 p.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
With regard to once you've filed a complaint or an allegation in the system, is there a way that this gets reported back to you as to where it has been assigned, who's taking care of it and what the outcome will be?
1:55 p.m.
LCdr Raymond Trotter
That's a very good question, sir. What typically happens is that, as a unit office of primary interest for OPHTAS, I collect the information and put it into the database. It is then passed to my L2 and L1, because they have what I guess you would call “uber users” who verify the information.
Where it ultimately ends and gets investigated, again, it might be above my pay grade to answer the question, depending on who the respondent is—not only the rank of the respondent but what the allegation is. It's probably above my pay grade and outside my subject matter expertise to answer how that investigation could be conducted.
2 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Karen McCrimmon
All right. Thank you very much.
We will go to Madam Gallant, please.
2 p.m.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Through you to our witness, Amelie said the complaint with respect to the chief of the defence staff would be taken to the minister, to the department assistant's office that directly supports the minister and directly engages with his staff. That's who Amelie is. I just want to confirm that you knew who she was.
2 p.m.
LCdr Raymond Trotter
To answer your question, ma'am, I don't. With my rank and position and my access to the GEDS database, it was very difficult for me to authenticate the information, but based off the conversation that I was having and the fact that she was calling me back with information about my initial calls.... She explained her name to me and her role. I thought I was speaking with the chief of staff to the Minister of National Defence at the time.
2 p.m.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
Okay. If she is the assistant that directly supports the minister's office and directly engages with his staff, and if she said she was taking the issue to the minister, she definitely did have access to the minister. I'm just stating that as a fact.
Did she tell you that she was taking the issue to the minister?
2 p.m.
LCdr Raymond Trotter
Yes, ma'am.
2 p.m.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
Okay.
Did that person explain why she didn't take your complaint the first time you called?
2 p.m.
LCdr Raymond Trotter
She did try to redirect me to a more appropriate place. I can't get into the headspace about why she did or didn't want to. Again, because this is a difficult situation for me to know where to report it, I needed to hear it out. I needed to hear the points of view.
I'm sorry. I hope that answers your question.
2 p.m.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
[Technical difficulty—Editor] National Defence follow up with you after they advised you to report the allegation to the Canadian Forces national investigation service?
2 p.m.
LCdr Raymond Trotter
I'm sorry, ma'am. The first three seconds of your question were cut out there.
Could you repeat it?
2 p.m.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
Did anyone from National Defence follow up with you after they advised you to report the allegation to the CFNIS?
2 p.m.
LCdr Raymond Trotter
Nobody from the Canadian Forces outside of the CFNIS has followed up with me about it, other than once the story hit the news and my name got into the news. Then I had tons of support from the chain of command about it, but not necessarily about this incident.
2 p.m.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
Okay.
In your experience, is there a two-tier reporting system for sexual misconduct in the Canadian Armed Forces?
2 p.m.
LCdr Raymond Trotter
Could you try to reframe that so I better understand it?
2 p.m.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
You mentioned that somebody said if you were a sergeant maybe this would have made sense. That kind of implies that there may be some sort of two-tier reporting system for sexual misconduct in the Canadian Armed Forces. Has that been your experience in reporting?
2 p.m.
LCdr Raymond Trotter
I would say that's above my pay grade, but what I can comment on is only what I observed. From my limited experience, I can say that it appears that senior officers seem to get special treatment when there are sexual misconduct allegations. I think that's maybe because the people who are responsible for dealing with sexual misconduct allegations are senior officers and they may have some background or professional connections with respondent officers. I've heard in terms of sort of the old boys' network amongst the senior ranks....