Evidence of meeting #26 for National Defence in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was harassment.
A recording is available from Parliament.
2:55 p.m.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
Thank you, sir.
Katie Telford asked you to contact Zita and the PCO. You went to the PCO. Then you had a communication with Ms. Astravas. Was that done by phone? Was it a personal meeting? Was it done through email or text messages? How did you communicate?
2:55 p.m.
As an Individual
I can't be a hundred per cent certain. I expect—because my recollection is that it was either late on March 1 or early the next day—that it was probably a phone call, and that she would have told me on the phone what had happened and expressed a desire to make sure that the right steps were now taken to follow up with that information—
2:55 p.m.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
You're under the impression that Ms. Astravas was working on direction from Minister Sajjan.
2:55 p.m.
As an Individual
I would assume that.
My sense was that the.... I don't want to speak here for the minister or his chief of staff at the time, so I want to be a little careful. I'm just trying to be accurate to be most helpful, but I understood that in the face of receiving that knowledge from Mr. Walbourne, everyone agreed that we needed to get this now into the hands of the Privy Council to make sure the right thing happened.
The way to do that.... It is pretty common that if a minister or someone on the minister's team is trying to get that done—trying to engage with the central machinery of government—as a staffer in the Prime Minister’s Office you help to facilitate that and make sure that happens and there is no miscommunication along the way.
2:55 p.m.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
I appreciate that, sir.
In terms of your communication with Ms. Astravas, in your opening comments you said that the allegations were personal misconduct, but at any time when you talked to Ms. Astravas, did you guys talk about the allegations being sexual in nature? Yes or no.
2:55 p.m.
As an Individual
I believe I was told that the issue was an issue of personal misconduct. I have to say in the context of hearing that I think my presumption was certainly that it could be of a sexual nature, but I don't think I was actually given that information specifically. Again, in the absence of knowing what it was and whether it was serious or not, we operated on the assumption that it was serious and could be a very serious allegation, and acted accordingly. I don't think in any way that I formed a view about what it was and then changed what I did. I treated it assuming it was very serious; that was the way I went into it.
2:55 p.m.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
I appreciate that, Mr. Marques.
How many times did you actually talk to Ms. Astravas over the coming days on this issue? Do you have any idea of how many times you talked or emailed each other back and forth?
2:55 p.m.
As an Individual
Unfortunately, I can't say. I would have remained in touch with her to the extent we were getting any sense of what the next steps were—things like that. She would have been engaged, because we both at that time appreciated that, one, this could be something very serious, and that there was some urgency.
If you have someone in the form here of the ombudsman putting his hand up and saying he has a concern, an issue or a question, or needs advice, you don't want to leave that hanging. You want to make sure that steps are taken quickly to make sure he gets an answer. That was my concern on that day.
2:55 p.m.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
As you're having these discussions and getting more information, and since you had been tasked to do this by Katie Telford, how many times did you report back to Katie Telford with how the investigation or the situation was progressing?
2:55 p.m.
As an Individual
Again, I can't say exactly how many times. Katie was an accessible member of the team. I would have understood, given that we all appreciated the sensitivity of this issue, the need to get an answer out quickly. I would have reported back pretty quickly to say, here's where we're at and here's what the next steps look like. I would have been updating her on the—
2:55 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Karen McCrimmon
Thank you, Mr. Bezan. That's your six minutes.
We have Mr. Bagnell, please.
2:55 p.m.
Liberal
Larry Bagnell Liberal Yukon, YT
Thank you very much for being here, Mr. Marques. You're really providing the best you can, which is great. We really appreciate it at the committee.
I want to ask you a couple of questions. You may have covered them already, but I want to make sure we have the information on the record. We know that the Minister of National Defence's then chief of staff reached out to your office to bring the situation to your attention.
Can you confirm when you were first contacted on the issue, what steps you followed and when they occurred?
2:55 p.m.
As an Individual
Again, I wish I could pinpoint it a little more clearly. I just don't want to say anything that isn't accurate. It either would have been March 1...which I understand is the day the ombudsman had his meeting with the minister. I was asked either on that day directly—I imagine late in the day, given that the meeting had already happened—or early the following morning.
It's clear, just in looking back on this, that there would have been a lot of activity happening on that morning of March 2 on this issue. It may be that I began the day on March 2 by learning about this, or it may be that I began the day on March 2 by following up.
What I was doing primarily by following up was really going to see the clerk, going up the stairs and down the hall, making him aware of the situation and making sure they appreciated the importance of making sure the right steps were then taken, and I think that's what happened.
2:55 p.m.
Liberal
Larry Bagnell Liberal Yukon, YT
Mr. Bezan covered this a bit. We also know that this was raised to the Clerk of the Privy Council Office within hours of the allegations being brought forward. Were you the one who brought the allegations to the Clerk of the Privy Council Office?
2:55 p.m.
As an Individual
I was. I think I did that in person, in his office. We didn't have a scheduled appointment. I went up and asked if he had a few minutes to see me, and I spoke to him that way.
2:55 p.m.
Liberal
Larry Bagnell Liberal Yukon, YT
Would it be fair to say that the minister's chief of staff, and consequently you yourself, moved pretty quickly to try to establish an independent process to investigate these allegations?
2:55 p.m.
As an Individual
I think everyone who was involved in this appreciated that it was important that the next steps be the right steps, that it be done appropriately and responsibly, but there was initially, at the very beginning, also an urgency that I think was important to say that if Mr. Walbourne has asked for some kind of assistance or advice, we can't.... You know, no one wants to leave that hanging any longer than it needs to be. Certainly, in my dealings, but I think everyone really shared this, there was sort of an appreciation that let's make sure very quickly that he gets answers, and then let's continue the work in the Privy Council to make sure they figure out what the next steps are, and—if there are other things that should be done—that they work on those so there's something in place to look at this.
2:55 p.m.
Liberal
Larry Bagnell Liberal Yukon, YT
Okay. This has been very helpful.
Did you ever refuse to come to this committee?
2:55 p.m.
As an Individual
I did not. I am happy to be here, because I can understand the reason the committee is exploring these issues. I think understanding this chronology is important. I'm happy to be helpful to the committee, and I hope I am today.
2:55 p.m.
Liberal
Larry Bagnell Liberal Yukon, YT
We established that you took action immediately upon receipt of the information. I'd like to move on and ask why you thought it was appropriate to bring these allegations directly to the Clerk of the Privy Council Office.
2:55 p.m.
As an Individual
I think there is probably more than one way to handle what you do with a situation of that sort, who you talk to and who you engage, but in my mind, you can't go wrong by taking it to the Clerk of the Privy Council. The clerk, in our system, wears a lot of different hats. He runs the Privy Council Office, which is effectively the Prime Minister's department. In that sense, he's like a deputy minister. However, he is also head of the public service. He has that responsibility, which is system-wide. It means that he is able to marshal whatever resources need to be marshalled within the PCO or outside of the PCO, to make sure that the right people are involved and the right institutions are involved, and to get the best possible advice in the system about what to do.
He's also secretary to the cabinet. Here you have a situation where a minister has had this exchange with the ombudsman, which I think everyone would agree is unusual and not a normal occurrence. In his role facilitating the work of ministers around the cabinet table, and making sure that institutionally ministers know where they are and what they need to do, he was also well situated in that role. He wears these multiple hats, and in a way each of them was relevant to this issue.
Frankly, you go to the top because you want to make sure that, to the extent there's anything that can be done, it is done immediately and the right way. The way to do that in our system is certainly to rely on the clerk. I certainly had confidence that he would do that. Nothing about how he responded to me ever made me doubt that.
2:55 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Karen McCrimmon
All right. Thank you very much.
We move on to Monsieur Barsalou-Duval, s'il vous plaît.
2:55 p.m.
Bloc
Xavier Barsalou-Duval Bloc Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
My question is for Mr. Marques.
Mr. Marques, perhaps you are aware that our wish to call you here as a witness gave rise to a lot of resistance on the part of the governing party.
Do you know the reasons for that reaction?
2:55 p.m.
As an Individual
Thank you for your question.
I have to say, being in government was a real privilege and I was very happy to be able to play the roles that I played, but being out of government also means I don't get involved in those types of issues, and I'm happy not to be involved in them. Therefore, I will leave that to the very capable members of this committee and commentators. That's not something I was aware of, other than—