National Defence Committee on April 30th, 2021

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

All right. Thank you very much.

We go on to Madame Vandenbeld, please.

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Thank you for being here, Ms. Telford.

I have heard the minister and the Prime Minister say on many occasions that while they have taken important steps to address these serious and long-standing challenges, it's clear they haven't done enough, nor have they moved fast enough.

I appreciate those words. I know they're not easy to say, but they are very important to acknowledge. That's how we move forward and that's how we do more.

It is clear that more needs to be done and is being done, but what about time? I'm wondering if you have any thoughts on the speed of that work and how we can make sure that it happens quickly, recognizing the urgency of the situation for so many women and men in the Canadian Armed Forces.

[Katie Telford]

Madam Chair, I think we need to move as quickly as we can. I think that's why it's important that as part of the announcements that were made recently, there were multiple steps taken, and there are multiple tracks being worked on to ensure that as much as possible can be done as quickly as possible.

There was the appointment within the armed forces around culture change. There was the appointment of Madam Arbour, outside the armed forces, whose recommendations can be acted on as she makes the recommendations, and our commitment as a government is to do that. In addition to that, there's the work the committee's doing.

In addition to that, I think we have to continue to be open to what else we can do. It's how I have always tried to operate and how I know this government has always tried to operate. How I got to know some of the members of the armed forces was in their seeing both my passion, I think, and my curiosity at wanting to learn more, and so I had the great privilege of being let in. Obviously I didn't know everything that I'm now learning, but I certainly have learned a lot, and I hope to continue to learn and continue to act on those lessons as I learn them.

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Thank you, Ms. Telford.

The opposition today, and particularly the Conservatives, have continued to question why you didn't raise this matter with the Prime Minister. What I'm hearing from you quite clearly is that you and Mr. Marques were told by the clerk that the Privy Council Office was the appropriate place for this matter to be looked into further and that it was not up to politicians or their staff to investigate allegations. Further, you were updated on that process and learned that despite PCO's efforts and attempts, the ombudsman had not provided the necessary information for PCO to take the matter any further. From there, it was clear that despite further attempts from your office to see what more could be done, PCO had hit a wall. Despite that, you were concerned. You wanted to ensure the individual who had come forward would be safe in their workplace.

In sum, it was clear that this was a matter for PCO. PCO was unable to get any substantial information from the ombudsman to look into the matter further, and based on the advice you received, there was nothing more that could be done.

Is that a fair interpretation of what we've heard today? Is there anything you'd like to add to that?

[Katie Telford]

Madam Chair, that is a fair interpretation. There's only one thing I would add, because often the comparison or contrast is made to what we've been learning and your committee has been learning about what happened with rumours and anonymous emails and things that came forward under the previous government. I think it's really important to notice where they are similar and where they are distinct.

Where they are distinct is that they had content that was still being followed up on the public service side. That was the appropriate place for the follow-up to happen, as officials who have come before you have already said. They had content to follow up on, but we didn't know anything, nor could the public service find out anything that they could follow up on.

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Thank you so much, Ms. Telford. I can imagine, knowing you, how concerning this would have been for you. I know that your own feelings were not obviously top of mind, and that despite not knowing the nature of the allegation, you still would have had the individual who made it front and centre in your considerations. I know that those also would have been shared by your staff.

Not knowing who the person was or how you could directly reach out and help would have been quite difficult for you. Is that a fair comment?

[Katie Telford]

Well, even more than that, Madam Chair, knowing nothing is.... I have been in situations when I have received anonymous complaints, as the previous government did. They received an anonymous complaint. They had a rumour. They had things they could follow up on and figure out how to wrap their minds around. In this case, we didn't have any information other than that all the appropriate steps were taken to try to follow up, to try to do our best to see if there was anything more we could do to support the person involved, to support whatever outcome they were looking for, depending on what the complaint was.

I think all of those steps were taken, but that was the best we could do with what we had, which was very, very little at the time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Thank you.

This is the last round. We don't have enough time to do a full round, so I would suggest that the five-minute questions get cut down to three minutes and that the 2.5-minute questions stay the way they are.

Are we all right with that? Okay.

Madam Alleslev, you have three minutes, please.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Ms. Telford, there is multiple email evidence that shows that the Privy Council Office and the Prime Minister's Office staff were using the term “sexual harassment”. Who made the decision not to tell the Prime Minister?

[Katie Telford]

Madam Chair, I would just clarify two things on this point. One is the testimony that has already been referenced by all of the same people who were involved, and more than the number of people who were involved, in the emails that I believe the member is referring to. None of them, while they thought it was possible it could be a—

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

It doesn't say “possible”.

[Katie Telford]

—a complaint of a sexual nature, they themselves didn't know the nature of the complaint. They have all come here and come on the record and said that.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

But you didn't know the substance, so you also didn't know that it wasn't, and the evidence says the term “sexual harassment”.

Who made the decision not to inform the Prime Minister?

[Katie Telford]

Madam Chair, I know I am repeating myself here, but the member is alleging something that is not the case. What everyone has said who has come before committee, and what I can—

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

That's not the case. That's not the case—

[Katie Telford]

I will only speak about myself—

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

—that the email evidence—

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

I have a point of order, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Go ahead, Mr. Spengemann.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

I'm just going to repeat the same point that I made previously. I'm sure my colleague listened to it. It's impossible for interpretation to follow an exchange when a member talks over top of a witness.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Thank you, Mr. Spengemann.

Go ahead, Madam Alleslev.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Ms. Telford, what made you think you had the authority to decide not to tell the Prime Minister about these serious allegations against the chief of the defence staff?

[Katie Telford]

I believe, Madam Chair, the member is now asking what my responsibility in this is. I can tell you that my responsibility, I believed, was to respond to the request coming from the minister.

As I said earlier in this committee, while this request was a particularly unusual one that I was concerned about, a request often comes in from chiefs of staff and ministers for advice on how they should react in this circumstance or what next steps they should take—

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Ms. Telford—

[Katie Telford]

—or what our point of view is, and—