National Defence Committee on April 30th, 2021

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Ms. Telford—

[Katie Telford]

—that is the advice that I made sure to get him from the appropriate people in place.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Ms. Telford, there is email evidence saying it was sexual harassment in nature. Who made the decision not to tell the Prime Minister?

[Katie Telford]

Madam Chair, the member is referring to emails between people who I believe have spoken before this committee. Those same individuals have said that they didn't have any details or any knowledge of the substance of this complaint.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

And yet—

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Thank you.

We'll go on to Mr. Baker, please.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Thank you very much, Ms. Telford, for being with us today.

I want to thank you for being here today, and I want to express my sincere disappointment in the Conservative members of this committee and their caucus and their House for their extreme partisanship. Not only that, but they know that the Conservative government, and Mr. O'Toole himself, followed the exact same—

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

I have a point of order, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Go ahead, Mr. Bezan.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

I don't think it's appropriate that Mr. Baker uses his time to attack other members of this committee, especially after they filibustered—

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

It's debate, Madam Chair. It's not a point of order.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Mr. Bezan—

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

It's very much a point of order, because he's besmirching our reputation—

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Stop, Mr. Bezan.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

—and it's irresponsible.

I'd also say at the same time that the Liberals have been using their time to—

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Mr. Bezan—

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Madam Chair—

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Mr. Bezan, please.

We'll go back to Mr. Baker, please.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

I'm disappointed to hear that from Mr. Bezan, who has spent the entire time on this committee focusing his time on criticizing others instead of addressing the issue of sexual harassment and assault in the Canadian military.

I want to express my disappointment with the Conservative members of this committee and their caucus in the House for their extreme partisanship, and it's not only that: They know that the Conservative government, and Mr. O'Toole himself, followed the exact same process, except that the Conservative government actually appointed General Vance while an active investigation into his conduct was under way. I think that's really important to highlight here.

Ms. Telford, to wrap it up, you took on a great deal of responsibility when you stepped into the role of chief of staff to the Prime Minister. I don't think you imagined you'd get the kind of attention that you have in recent days. I know you and I know your values. I imagine they are likely why you have decided to come here today to speak to the issues at hand and to help this committee in its work.

Ultimately, I believe it's our committee's responsibility to find a way forward. I believe we on this committee have an opportunity to provide recommendations so that every woman and man who decides to serve Canadians in the armed forces has the support they need and can come forward with the confidence that any allegation of sexual misconduct will be taken seriously.

As you know, it's no small task. I know Madam Arbour will play a key role, and her recommendations will be critical. I also believe our committee has the opportunity to make a difference.

Would you care to comment on that at all or share your thoughts?

[Katie Telford]

I have a couple of quick thoughts, realizing the time.

I would start by saying that his has been an extraordinarily difficult week in an extraordinarily difficult time already. I appreciate what Parliament decided in their vote on Wednesday.

I was pleased to come here. What has motivated me through this week has been focusing on an issue that I am incredibly passionate about and that I feel extremely strongly about. I do know that all of you do too. I know that Parliament does. I know that if we can all put our collective minds together, we can truly make the change happen that the women and men in our Canadian Armed Forces, and some of you here who have served in the Canadian Armed Forces, all deserve to see happen. That is what we need to stay focused on. We need to stay focused on that before almost anything else and certainly before partisanship. I think that has been the most disappointing thing that I have experienced this week as someone who, since I was a little girl, has revered that place up on the Hill from where I am now.

I really hope we can all focus on what this committee is studying right now, which is sexual misconduct and how we address it in the armed forces.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Thank you.

Mr. Barsalou-Duval, you have the floor.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Ms. Telford, you have said throughout the meeting that you were not aware of the details of the sexual misconduct allegations against General Vance. However, I think it's well established now that the reason you didn't have those details is because there is a Minister of Defence in the person of Mr. Sajjan who never wanted to see those details. Unfortunately, this is the same defence minister who did not implement the recommendations of the Deschamps report.

Don't you find that, at the end of the day, if the minister had done the right thing, we wouldn't be in this situation today?

Don't you think that, in some ways, your government ends up bearing the brunt of the loss of trust related to the treatment of women in the military?

[Katie Telford]

Let me try to work backwards through that, Madam Chair.

As I said in my opening statement, and as the member and I have discussed over the course of this committee hearing, this is a systemic problem or challenge for us all that dates back, unfortunately, to long before our government came to power. It is one that our government, as I established with one of the other members, has been trying to tackle since we first got into government, although, as we also have already established, much more needs to be done, and much more quickly.

To your point around Minister Sajjan, if I can address that, he was faced with this unusual circumstance, and his first instinct was to seek advice. The advice that we got from the appropriate officials was to redirect the ombudsperson to the Privy Council Office. I don't what else could have been done.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Thank you.

Ms. Telford, you reiterate that this is a systemic problem. I agree that there is a systemic problem, but the people who are part of the system make decisions. Your government, a Liberal government, had six years to implement the recommendations of the Deschamps report, and nothing was done.

Isn't this a statement of failure? Don't you also, in a way, bear the blame for this dysfunctional system?