Evidence of meeting #3 for National Defence in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was make.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Geneviève Bernatchez  Judge Advocate General, Canadian Armed Forces, Department of National Defence
Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Michael MacPherson
Mike Rouleau  Vice Chief of the Defence Staff, Department of National Defence

November 2nd, 2020 / 11:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Karen McCrimmon

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number three of the House of Commons Standing Committee on National Defence. Pursuant to Standing Order 81(4) and the motion adopted by the committee on Wednesday, October 14, we are meeting today to study the main estimates for 2020-21.

Before we get going, I would respectfully request a moment of silence for Corporal Choi, who was killed in a training accident this past weekend.

[A moment of silence observed]

I would now like to welcome our witnesses.

Today we have with us the Honourable Harjit Sajjan, P.C., MP, Minister of National Defence.

From the Department of National Defence we have Jody Thomas, deputy minister; Lieutenant General Mike Rouleau, vice chief of the defence staff; Cheri Crosby, ADM, finance and chief financial officer; Troy Crosby, ADM, materiel; Geneviève Bernatchez, judge advocate general, Canadian Armed Forces; and from the Communications Security Establishment, we have Shelly Bruce, its chief.

I'd like to invite the witnesses to begin with their statements.

Thank you very much.

11:05 a.m.

Vancouver South B.C.

Liberal

Harjit S. Sajjan LiberalMinister of National Defence

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I want to thank everyone for the moment of silence.

Before I begin I too want to acknowledge the profound loss of Corporal James Choi during a training exercise in Wainwright, Alberta. My heartfelt condolences go out to his family, and our entire defence team will be there for them during this difficult time. We have begun an investigation to look into how this tragedy took place and to see what we can do to prevent it from ever happening again.

Madam Chair, since you've already introduced my entire team, I'll just move forward here. We are all here to answer your questions.

As you know, the defence team must be ready to anticipate, adapt and act in today's security context. That is why we began a historic investment in National Defence and the Canadian Armed Forces through our defence policy, “Strong, Secure, Engaged”, which will increase defence spending by over 70% from 2016-17. The $23.3 billion we are requesting will support our people while advancing Canada's broader objectives for security, and while supporting the Canadian economy, which is critical as Canada continues its fight against COVID-19.

In fiscal year 2020-21, the economic impact of the defence budget will generate $15.2 billion in GDP and approximately 283,000 jobs.

When we first tabled these estimates in February, COVID-19 was still emerging. While there is no specific COVID-related funding in these estimates, the pandemic has added a new layer of complexity to an already challenging threat environment.

From the beginning, the defence team has contributed greatly to Canada's whole-of-government response. The Communications Security Establishment has worked with government, businesses and our health care institutions to secure our networks and cyber infrastructure as the world has moved to working remotely. This spring, when Canadians were stuck overseas because of COVID-19, the Canadian Armed Forces' Operation Globe supported bringing them home to Canada, keeping them healthy and keeping them safe.

Through Operation Laser thousands of Canadian Armed Forces members supported Canadians, including 1,700 who put themselves at risk to help care for the vulnerable in 54 long-term care facilities in Quebec and Ontario, all this while meeting Canada's security needs, both at home and abroad.

We are committed to being a reliable partner and good global citizen. That is why these estimates include $160.3 million in NATO contributions. However, security at home and abroad can be achieved only with a diverse, inclusive and robust defence team. That's why we're taking deliberate and decisive action to eliminate hateful and harmful conduct.

In June, defence leadership and I met with our advisory groups and networks for an anti-racism and anti-discrimination round table to better understand their experiences and how we can eliminate barriers and biases. These barriers and biases form systemic racism in our institution, which needs to be addressed, and we are doing so. In July, the Canadian Armed Forces released a “hateful conduct” policy. The army, navy and air force followed with orders to help members identify and deal with hateful conduct within their ranks as well. These orders reinforce the message that intolerance and hate have no place within the Canadian Armed Forces. If you harbour hateful views, I can assure you that we will find you, and you will be dealt with.

We also recognize that we have more to do to ensure the Canadian Armed Forces becomes more inclusive to women and eliminates gender discrimination, harassment and sexual misconduct. The entire defence team will continue to invest in creating a safe, inclusive and welcoming space for all of our members. This is why these estimates include nearly $10.5 billion in funding and statutory authorities that will help compensate and take care of our people throughout their employment and beyond.

Building a robust and diverse defence team also helps keep Canada on the cutting edge of innovation. Our scientists and researchers have worked to develop solutions to Canada's COVID-19 challenges, helping to develop a COVID-19 risk calculator, which has now been shared with our federal, provincial and territorial partners, as well as the World Health Organization. Also, under the innovation for defence excellence and security program, commonly known as the IDEaS program, innovators across Canada are working to help us solve some of the key COVID-19 challenges that we face.

These investments in innovation go well beyond supporting not only the Department of National Defence but also the Canadian Armed Forces. They are critical to helping grow the Canadian economy and helping to support middle-class jobs across our country. The Canadian Armed Forces alone employ close to 100,000 regular force and reserve members, and continue recruiting today.

We also have about 25,000 National Defence employees in communities across the country. Our defence policy—“Strong, Secure, Engaged”—generates billions of dollars in economic benefits that will support millions of Canadians and their families for years to come. The investments outlined in SSE will contribute $108.6 billion to projects and programs between 2021 and 2024-25, investments that will generate more than $85 billion in GDP, helping us support good, stable, middle-class jobs for Canadians, investments that will also help support hundreds of thousands of jobs per year on average over the next five years. The $5 billion in these investments for our ships, aircraft, and land vehicles benefit more than just the companies that get the bids. These contracts create and sustain thousands of jobs and reinvest dollar for dollar back into our communities across our country.

For example, one year after we awarded the armoured combat support vehicle contract, the project has resulted in subcontracts to more than 30 Canadian businesses and supported more than 400 jobs. A strong economy of the twenty-first century must include investments in fighting the other greatest threat of this generation: climate change. That is why we are making substantial efforts to green defence.

As the department with the greatest infrastructure portfolio and over 20,000 buildings, National Defence produces nearly half of the federal government's greenhouse gas emissions. Thanks to our investments in green initiatives, we've already reduced our emissions by over 30% from 2005 levels. We are on track to get to 40% reductions by 2025, five years ahead of our initial goal.

Greening defence is also about maintaining a competitive edge and contributing to economic growth. In Halifax, we recently completed a new naval training facility that will yield energy savings for years to come through its modern green design. The local community benefited from the 160 jobs that were created during its construction. The $26.1 million in these estimates will help continue our modernization of critical national defence infrastructure while creating jobs and contributing to government's efforts to reach net zero emissions by 2050. These estimates will continue supporting the important work of the defence teams to help Canadians build our economy back better. These defence investments will let us defend Canadians while driving our economy and propelling our society forward.

By approving these investments, you are helping the defence team continue their critical work to advance our collective peace and prosperity.

Thank you very much. I would be pleased to take your questions.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Karen McCrimmon

Thank you very much, Minister. It's much appreciated.

The first round of questions will go to Mr. Bezan for six minutes.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I want to thank the minister and all of the departmental officials who are attending committee today.

I too want to add my condolences on behalf of all Conservative members of this committee to Corporal James Choi's family, his friends, and of course the entire Canadian Armed Forces family for this tragic loss.

Minister, I'm glad you talked about Operation Laser and the response of the Canadian Armed Forces to COVID-19.

My question is whether you're getting prepared to deploy again, especially as a second wave continues to pick up steam, and whether you're having any requests from provinces looking at requiring the support of the Canadian Armed Forces during this pandemic.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC

Thank you, Mr. Bezan, for that question. It's a really important one.

This is one thing that we have looked at from the start of this pandemic: not only did we need to be prepared early, but we also looked at the various stages that were coming up. Given that there was a potential for a second wave—and we are in it now—we did plan our response accordingly.

We felt that we didn't need to go to the levels we had initially, but currently we have the response in place across the country to be able to meet the needs we had outlined before by making sure that we prevent the spread of this horrible disease, making sure that we support vulnerable communities and at the same time making sure that we can provide logistical support where it's needed.

We haven't had a direct support just yet when it comes to COVID-related environments, but we are ready to provide not only that support but also support in case there are any other types of emergencies.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

Minister, how is COVID affecting the operations of the Canadian Armed Forces, not just domestically but our international obligations as well?

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC

This is something that we have been extremely mindful of, knowing that in this pandemic, even though we talk about it, it is difficult to prepare for. It did impact us overseas. I tried to keep you and the other critics up to date as time went on.

Some of the training that we would normally do—for example, in Ukraine or Operation Impact—obviously wasn't going to go any further because of COVID-19 itself. There weren't going to be people coming in, so there was no reason to actually continue the training. We basically based it on the situation on the ground, not only how COVID-19 was impacting but whether we were able to conduct training in a safe manner.

In Ukraine we have restarted our training. Even though some of the COVID numbers have increased in Ukraine, in the areas we're operating in those numbers have not been as high, as has been reported. The training has started there, which is a good thing, because the—

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

But I think we have to be concerned, even though I'm a big supporter of Ukraine and Operation Unifier, about the health care facilities and the discrepancy, I guess, in health care in Ukraine versus what we have here in Canada, and the safety of the troops especially as COVID numbers in Ukraine go up. I want to move on, because I know this is something that you're on top of. I appreciate that you and all staff are making sure our troops are staying as safe as possible and staying healthy during these times.

As you're aware, Minister, in the last Parliament we had a report from Foreign Affairs that showed that the quick reaction force for the United Nations was never registered. In the Vancouver pledges that we made, you suggested that we were going to get up to 600 troops deployed. The top number we ever saw, under the current government's mandate, was only 192. That's the number I see in front of me.

As it stands today, the UN peacekeeping number is below 40, and has been consistently over the last several months. We know that when you take out staff officers and military experts, we are down to zero troops actually wearing blue helmets on mission. So the quick reaction force never came about. Minister Champagne officially apologized, even though the Liberal members tried to block that apology. He officially apologized for the misleading of the committee.

Have you given up completely on the UN? We're not seeing troops deployed. We're not seeing a quick reaction force registered. Have you reached the same conclusion as many Canadians, that the UN just isn't effective anymore?

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC

On the contrary, actually, we're committed to the United Nations and other multilateral organizations. When it comes to our support for peace support operations, we are committed to this.

Sometimes when it comes to how the UN system works, it is quite complex. When I had to learn how the system worked, it was quite fascinating to me. It's about not only making the pledge but also then registering in the system and how you kind of go through it. We've been able to gain some experience on this. I can see how, if somebody doesn't fully understand the system, somebody could ask the question about—

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

All you have to do is look at the hard data. I mean, I don't see the numbers there. We've always been off base with the government on the Mali mission. I think the military coup proved that it was the wrong mission for Canada.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC

Well, let's step back a bit, Mr. Bezan. First of all, you talked about how we shouldn't be going to Mali. Then you talked about how, when you visited, you saw the tremendous work everybody did there. This is not about numbers when it comes to UN missions. We have to be extremely mindful of what type of capabilities we provide.

Plus, let's not forget one thing that I said from the beginning, that we will not commit troops unless we feel it's an appropriate mission that will have an impact. But this takes collaboration and work, making sure that what we provide will have the impact. Currently, as you know, we've finished the mission in Mali. Right now we're providing episodic support through logistics, that is, tactical airlift support, from Uganda. I'll tell you why this is extremely important. When I visited the African Union nations, especially the African Union headquarters, one of the things they asked for was high-level capability. They have the troops to be able to carry out the missions, but they need the support to be able to carry them out. For example, the tactical airlift is not only providing logistical support to many missions now; it's also moving troops to the various areas. On the additional support that we have also outlined, we are still working with the UN to determine not only which mission would be appropriate but also what the actual timeline would be.

As you know, the “smart pledge” concept is extremely important. If we do strictly what we've done before, then we're not improving the mission. The smart pledge concept is about making sure that nations do contribute, but are not burdened with taking this on for an extended period. That's why it's important to do a yearly rotation. That's what we're currently working on. This doesn't happen over time. This isn't something we can't personally do ourselves. This has to be done with the United Nations and many other countries. We're proud of the work we've done. We demonstrated that in Mali, and we'll continue to do the same type of work as we move forward.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Karen McCrimmon

Thank you, Minister.

We'll go on to Mr. Baker, please.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Yvan Baker Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for being here today to speak with us.

I'd also like to start by expressing my condolences on behalf of my community to the family, friends and all the members of the Canadian Armed Forces on the passing of Corporal James Choi.

Minister, in my community of Etobicoke Centre, we're mourning the loss of 42 residents to COVID-19 at the Eatonville Care Centre. As devastating as this is, the death toll would have been much higher had it not been for the members of the Canadian Armed Forces who were deployed there at a very difficult time to care for my constituents.

On behalf of my community, I'd like to take this opportunity, through you, Minister, to thank the Canadian Armed Forces, and particularly the Canadian Armed Forces members who cared for and saved the lives of my constituents in Etobicoke Centre.

Minister, my question to you is, could you tell us more about the Canadian Armed Forces response to the COVID-19 pandemic in Ontario?

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC

This is an unprecedented time for Canadians.

We knew that it was not easy, and neither could anyone anticipate what was going to take place, especially when it came to our long-term care facilities. As you know, 80% of the deaths that have occurred in Canada have been in long-term care facilities. As we've always stated, when the Canadian Armed Forces are needed, regardless of the task, we will be there.

This was unprecedented for the Canadian Armed Forces members, but they quickly learned about what they needed to do, put the appropriate training measures in and provided the appropriate support. One of the things I want to highlight is that I was extremely impressed with the leadership and how they were able to do this. They brought in clear guidelines and measures, not only on how they would be going in, but also on how they were going to be able to assess and make an improvement to the long-term care facilities so that they could then help the facilities themselves get back on their own feet. Then they were able to hand it off. That's one of the things I was extremely proud of: how they accomplished that.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Yvan Baker Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON

Thank you, Minister.

As you mentioned, I think that report will be very important in helping us to, as you say, better understand what some of the challenges are in our long-term care system and to help us address some of those challenges.

Minister, we have heard troubling reports on the military justice system.

Can you enlighten us on the issue, focusing on the best way to proceed if we, as parliamentarians....

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

We have no interpretation.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Yvan Baker Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON

I'm sorry. Does it work now?

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Karen McCrimmon

Please start again.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Yvan Baker Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON

Minister, we have heard troubling reports on the military justice system.

Can you enlighten us on the issue, focusing on the best way to proceed if we, as parliamentarians, had to participate in a military justice review?

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC

As you know, our military justice system is absolutely critical to the functioning of the Canadian Armed Forces and, as you know, we ask our Canadian Armed Forces members to do extraordinary things both here in Canada.... The military justice system is set up in such a way to make sure they provide the appropriate ability for us to have the discipline and a code ourselves when it comes to operations.

Currently, as you know, in the National Defence Act, a judicial review is conducted, and an independent judicial review will be conducted this year to make sure that I get the appropriate advice on any potential changes that need to be done. One thing that is absolutely critical is having a system that functions well. That is extremely important.

Our JAG is here. She may have remarks to offer.

11:25 a.m.

Commodore Geneviève Bernatchez Judge Advocate General, Canadian Armed Forces, Department of National Defence

Yes. Thank you.

Good morning.

What I would like to emphasize this morning is that the Canadian Armed Forces members and Canadians can rest assured that the military justice system is indeed meeting its purpose of maintaining discipline, efficiency and morale in the Canadian Armed Forces.

You will recall that last year, the Supreme Court of Canada in its R v Stillman landmark decision confirmed that the military justice system is a system that is necessary, a system that is legitimate and a system that is constitutional. In saying so, the Supreme Court of Canada reminded us that this is so because that system regularly receives scrutiny from parliamentarians, scrutiny from the courts and also scrutiny from independent reviews.

I believe that these three venues by which the system regularly receives reviews in order to ensure that it continues to evolve are extremely important to ensuring that the system continues to evolve with Canadian law, and also in accordance with Canadian values.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Karen McCrimmon

We have time for one more quick question.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

Yvan Baker Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON

Thank you very much. Those are my questions.

Thank you, Minister, and to everyone, for being here today.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Karen McCrimmon

All right.

Thank you.

Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe, go ahead.

11:30 a.m.

Bloc

Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC

Thank you, Madam Chair.

First, I want to sadly acknowledge the death of Corporal James Choi. On behalf of the Bloc Québécois and myself, I want to offer my deepest condolences to his family, his loved ones, his friends and to all the members of the Canadian Armed Forces.

I thank all the witnesses for joining us today.

Minister, I also thank you for being with us.

As you know, I am very interested in the Canadian Armed Forces reserves. I would like to know what the government objectives are in reserve recruitment.