Evidence of meeting #8 for National Defence in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was families.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Sheila Fynes  As an Individual
Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Michel Marcotte
Jackie Carlé  Executive Director, Esquimalt Military Family Resource Centre
Elizabeth Rolland-Harris  Former Senior Epidemiologist, Directorate of Force Health Protection, Canadian Forces Health Services Group, As an Individual
Jitender Sareen  Professor of Psychiatry, University of Manitoba, As an Individual

November 30th, 2020 / 11:10 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Karen McCrimmon

Ladies and gentlemen, I'm calling this meeting to order.

Good morning, everyone.

Today's meeting is meeting number eight of the House of Commons Standing Committee on National Defence. We're in a hybrid format, as agreed by the House order of September 23, 2020, so the proceedings will be made available on the House of Commons website.

Our meeting today will be twofold. Our first panel for the first hour will be composed of Ms. Sheila Fynes, who is the parent of veteran Corporal Stuart Langridge, who died by suicide in 2008.

Also, we have Ms. Jackie Carlé, the executive director of the Esquimalt Military Family Resource Centre. Good morning, Ms. Carlé. I know it's early in B.C., and we thank you for joining us today.

After a short pause around noon, we will engage with the second panel.

I want to start by thanking Mrs. Fynes for her testimony and for joining us here today. Thank you for having the courage to join us here today. I know it's not easy, but it's really important that parliamentarians actually hear from people like you, and that we listen, even though it might be difficult to do so. We have to try.

The programs we put in place, the policies we put in place, are designed so that we can make people's lives a little easier, maybe a little bit brighter. We do that by talking to the people with lived experience and experts, and bringing all that information together.

As a veteran as well, I acknowledge your son's service to this country and let you know that we're deeply sorry for your loss. I must say that your courage... I mean, it's inspirational to all of us that you still keep going, as painful and as frustrating as I can just imagine, and I can only imagine, it must be. It's hard and difficult, but I wanted to thank you. I wanted to acknowledge what you're doing. It's important. What you have to say to us today is so very important for us to hear, because this is all about people.

With that, thank you for joining us today, and I thank you in advance, and I will now ask you to take the floor, Mrs. Fynes.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

Just a quick point of order, Madam Chair, for whatever reason, my English channel doesn't work. The floor channel does.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Karen McCrimmon

Okay, yes. Right now the translation from French to English is not working, so maybe you can put it on “floor” for now.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

That's what I'll have to do. Okay.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Karen McCrimmon

We're working on something in the background about the translation to English. We've got about 12 minutes of grace time before our first French-speaking intervention. If we don't get it fixed in 12 minutes, then we will stop. All right?

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

Okay.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Karen McCrimmon

In this first 12 minutes, I believe that most of the conversation will be in English, so “Floor” would be acceptable. I'm sorry. I should have probably said that first, before my intervention.

All right, then. Thank you very much.

We'll go over to you, Ms. Fynes.

11:10 a.m.

Sheila Fynes As an Individual

Thank you, and thank you for your kind words.

Good morning, Madam Chair and committee members, and hello again to those members I have met before.

My name is Sheila Fynes, and I will begin by thanking you for this opportunity to speak to possible revisions to the National Defence Act, specifically regarding section 98(c). The specific elements of that offence that are of concern are:

98. Every person who:

(c) wilfully injures himself...with intent thereby to render himself...unfit for service...

is guilty of an offence and on conviction, if he commits the offence on active service or when under orders for active service...is liable to imprisonment for life or to less punishment and, in any other case, is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding five years or to less punishment.

That's a lot of words.

Notwithstanding the need to support good order—

11:15 a.m.

Bloc

Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC

Ms. Fynes, I am really sorry to interrupt you.

I have a point of order, Madam Chair.

We no longer hear the French interpretation. I'd really like to hear Ms. Fynes' testimony in French.

11:15 a.m.

The Clerk of the Committee Mr. Michel Marcotte

We'll do a quick test. It won't take very long.

11:15 a.m.

As an Individual

Sheila Fynes

May I continue?

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Karen McCrimmon

One minute, please.

I'm told that things are working now.

11:15 a.m.

Bloc

Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC

Indeed, it is working.

Thank you.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Karen McCrimmon

Ms. Fynes, you may continue.

11:15 a.m.

As an Individual

Sheila Fynes

I believe that, even if never used, this subsection provides an unintended negative consequence simply by remaining in force.

In 2007, while completing the last phase of training towards his next promotion, Stuart admitted in a questionnaire that he suffered from chest pains. That triggered a return to his unit, where he was placed under military medical care. We did not know at that time that chest pain is symptomatic of post-traumatic stress disorder. In the year following, until his death, Stuart was dispensed multiple prescriptions, but went progressively downhill and suffered nightmares and night terrors. He also began to self-medicate, primarily with alcohol, supplemented by marijuana, the latter now being an accepted and provided treatment.

As his condition deteriorated, Stuart began what became a series of suicide attempts and accompanying emergency hospitalizations. He became more and more isolated from his military comrades and began to see himself not as a good soldier but rather, as he put it, “one of those losers”.

In desperation, towards the end, he took himself to a local civilian psychiatric hospital for help and was admitted. At the end of the standard 30-day mental health certificate, he wanted to continue in treatment but was surprised when he was ordered back to base instead. A few days later he was placed on what were later described as restrictions, but they in fact closely resembled defaulter's discipline. He was subjected to a curfew, as well as an extended work day. He had to report all his movements on a form at the regiment and report in every two hours. He was required to sleep with the door open in the defaulter's room behind the duty desk at the regiment. He was completely shamed and humiliated.

Reportedly, a decision had also been made that he would not be allowed to attend a treatment program at a cost of about $50,000, and Stuart became even more dysphoric. He gained access to a room at the barracks, purportedly to do laundry, where he instead hanged himself.

Fifteen months after his death, we were informed that Stuart had left a note apologizing to his family that he could not take the pain anymore. The application of quasi discipline to a mental health problem was a spectacular failure that cost our family a son, a brother and a grandson. It also cost the military a dedicated, extremely well trained and experienced soldier.

Indicative of the prevailing attitude at that time was a bizarre suggestion at the board of inquiry that followed: Officers opined that Stuart could not have acquired post-traumatic stress disorder from his deployment as a recce soldier and his patrols in the mountains of Afghanistan.

Thankfully, much has been learned since then, and post-traumatic stress disorder or, more generically, operational stress injury, is now accepted as a bona fide injury. In that paradigm shift, effectuated by a new generation of leadership in the forces, extensive new suicide prevention strategies have been implemented and more treatments are becoming available. Victims are no longer written off as just discipline problems. The institution now encourages a more contemporary warrior ethos, which recognizes that soldiers, however exceptional, are humans and not machines. Even thinly disguised discipline is misplaced abuse of the subordinate and is no longer a default alternative to medical treatment.

Currently, the military justice system has come under general scrutiny, and a review headed by former Supreme Court Justice Morris Fish has been undertaken. Hopefully it will address the broader issues of impartiality and fairness within the system.

Contrasting section 98(c) to civilian criminal justice in Canada, I would point out that a possible sentence of life imprisonment equates self-harm in the military to the most serious offences, such as murder or treason. I believe that the concept of punishing for self-harm is a relic of the World War I era. Back then, some soldiers weighed the lesser evil of self-harm against that of charging on foot through no man's land against waiting machine guns. Canadian soldiers were punished and some even executed for perceived cowardice. Of note, all those executed have since been pardoned on humanitarian grounds.

Now, in the age of a professional, volunteer military, trench warfare-era punishment for self-harm has lost any true relevance.

In recent times, our military has suffered a slow-drip epidemic of soldiers being lost to suicide. Today, any soldier inflicting self-harm is more likely to be suffering from an operational stress injury than trying to avoid combat. Suicide attempts resulting in self-harm should summon immediate help, not punishment.

By contrast again, in Canada the criminal offence of attempted suicide was repealed almost five decades ago. Such incidents are now managed under mental health provisions rather than by criminalizing and punishing victims.

I worry that the lingering stigmatization of operational stress injuries faced by members of our military inadvertently dissuades them from seeking help. That reality is oppositional to the hope that early medical interventions can offer better outcomes.

Members of the military intuitively understand the difference between “talk the talk” and “walk the walk”. It is not enough to tell them to put their hands up and ask for help when they see that they may be punished instead. In this instance, continued reliance on arbitrary discipline undercuts efforts to support members who may be struggling. To a soldier attempting to end their pain by taking their own life, the possibility of future discipline holds no deterrent.

Because section 98(c) prescribes punishment for self-harm, it frames it as a discipline problem. Because discipline is administered for misconduct or failure, it invokes shame and thereby actually reinforces the stigma around mental injuries. Members of Canada's military have earned our respect and support, not disdain or punishment.

Our sincere hope is that some good will come from Stuart's death and that positive changes regarding treatment of victims of OSI will form a part of his legacy.

The provisions of section 98(c), when applied to those with mental injuries, are a travesty and opposite to how wounded Canadian patriots should be treated. It is inconceivable to me, and hopefully to you, that threats of Code of Service Discipline and possible life imprisonment will in any way help address the high numbers of suicides in the forces.

In a volunteer military with professional leadership, punishments under section 98(c) of the National Defence Act have become inappropriate and may, in a deleterious way, undermine good order and discipline. I would respectfully suggest that there is no appreciable downside to removal of that section.

Proper administration of the forces should rely not simply on threats but on effective leadership. Our injured troops are not to be treated as disposable military assets, and if repeal of section 98(c) saves even one life, you will have had a profound impact.

Thank you for your efforts to effect positive change and to look after the best interests of each and every one of our service women and men.

Thank you.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Karen McCrimmon

Thank you very much, Ms. Fynes.

I'm going to ask Ms. Carlé, please, for your opening statement.

11:20 a.m.

Jackie Carlé Executive Director, Esquimalt Military Family Resource Centre

Good morning, and thank you so much for having me here.

I'm touched by your testimony, and this is a story that we hear, so thank you very much for sharing it. It's moving, and it really does speak to our response to operational injuries and also the moral injury that your family experienced. That's something that we deal with fairly frequently in our military family program.

11:25 a.m.

Bloc

Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC

Madam Chair, on a point of order.

I think we have a problem having to do with interpretation. The interpreter tells us that the person is not speaking into the microphone.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Karen McCrimmon

Ms. Carlé, could you hold the microphone as close as you can? Thank you. We'll try it again.

11:25 a.m.

Executive Director, Esquimalt Military Family Resource Centre

Jackie Carlé

Is that better?

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Karen McCrimmon

Yes, and if you speak slowly and a little louder than normal, that will surely help the interpreters.

Thank you.

11:25 a.m.

Executive Director, Esquimalt Military Family Resource Centre

Jackie Carlé

Thank you so much.

Good morning. Thank you for having me here today. I'm in beautiful Victoria, British Columbia.

I am the executive director of the Esquimalt Military Family Resource Centre, and I've worked in military family services programs for 23 years.

I'll give you a bit of background about military family resource centres.

A lot of people don't realize that we are not-for-profit societies. There are 32 such centres across Canada, and we are all specialists and subject matter experts in the military family lifestyle. We receive some funding from the Canadian Forces morale and welfare organization, and we also receive funding from the local base for what we call site-specific services. I'm telling you that is because later on I will talk to you a little about some of our mental health services that are supported by CFB Esquimalt.

We have the ability as not-for-profits to fundraise, to apply for grants and to charge user fees for things such as day care to meet our budget requirements.

Military family lifestyle is unique and involves frequent and unpredictable geographic relocations. It involves the endurance on the home front of military members who head away for long missions and deployments and their exposure to risk. As we are also learning this morning, it's about families dealing with operational stress injuries.

In terms of that and in terms of our mental health services towards families, we offer a variety of programs and services. I'll briefly go over those for you.

We offer counselling. During the pandemic, we have moved to a virtual platform for our counselling services, but I'm sure you can understand that when we have cases of interpersonal violence in the home, we have created opportunities for people to meet with our counsellors in person, following all the appropriate COVID protocols. That's very important, because in some households it's impossible for a family member to receive counselling support when the military member or other family member is around. This has also proven to be something for the youth we support, who are often more comfortable going for a coffee or a walk. Again, this has been somewhat of a challenge during the pandemic, but we have been able to create appropriate protocols so that we can work with those folks.

Part of the work that we also do is preventive. That would be facilitating groups and workshops that relate to things such as parenting, maintaining wellness and relationship issues.

We're just about to launch into return-and-reunion workshops. We have a ship returning after six months away, with 220 members on board. We'll be working with their families to help to integrate that military member back into the household and to talk about things such as operational stress injuries and how they can support their families as they return back into their homes and into their communities.

We're also very fortunate to be able to offer specialized services, and this refers to my previous comment that we receive funding from our base commander. These would be services such as therapeutic play for children and youth, as well as navigation services. I'm sure you can imagine how it feels for families who have a child who is on a wait-list for exceptional needs when they finally get to the top and then have to relocate again. We're doing some work on harmonizing those wait-lists across provinces. Our staff also help people navigate the local services so they can integrate quickly and get the help they need for themselves and for their families.

We have a strong partnership with base mental health services, and this is very important, because families are complex. When we see them, we're not just seeing the family members; we're seeing the military member as well, and providing wraparound service. It's very important for us, with the appropriate confidentiality agreements in place, to have a close working relationship with base mental health as well as close working relationships with partners in the community, so that we can make meaningful referrals for families who are experiencing issues that are a little beyond our scope.

The Canadian Armed Forces has a construct called a transition centre. This is for members who are ill and injured. We have a counsellor who is co-located there. The purpose is to support families who are dealing with an injury, including an operational injury. Sometimes it can be an illness.

What they do in this unit is work with the military members. We work with the families, with the ultimate goal that the member might be transitioning out of the Canadian Armed Forces due to an illness or injury or might be needing some specialized care in order to get back to duty. We engage very heavily in this centre with military members, as well as with families, to create what we hope is a healthy transition.

What happens then is that the member gets passed along to our veteran family program coordinator, who works with families of veterans to assist with that very difficult transition, especially when it's a transition that was unpredictable due to a member's illness or injury.

I want to speak to you for a few minutes about some of the things that concern families when it comes to accessing mental health care for their military member.

One of the things we have certainly experienced is that at CFB Esquimalt, and I think at many bases across the country, there is a lack of mental health care after hours. During the day, if a military member is having any health issues, including mental health issues, they go through the clinic system, although there are some barriers to that for those members. Our big concern is when the office is closed down and it's after hours. Then organizations like ours, the chaplain team and the military police become the go-to resources under those circumstances. It almost seems inevitable that once a military member goes home, in the evening or over the weekend is when they or their family will reach out for help and support.

As I mentioned, I've been in this program for about 23 years. Previously, there was always a mental health professional from the base on call and ready for those after-hours emergencies. We have, in Ottawa, as part of military family services, a family information line that includes virtual counselling. The problem is that there is a lack of understanding of the local communities and how to support somebody over the telephone when there is a crisis under way.

I would have to say kudos to our chaplain teams, who are the ones taking those after-hours calls. I hope at some point that the committee gets the opportunity to speak with a member from the chaplain team to begin to understand the unique pressures that they experience in terms of caring for families and military members.

The other issue that has concerned us in the past is that our military police force are not, in British Columbia, able to transport someone under the Mental Health Act. They're deemed not to have the proper credentials that the city or municipal police might have. What we've experienced, for example, is that a member might come through our doors with thoughts, for example, of suicidality. The military police are limited in terms of negotiating with that person, getting them into their vehicle and getting them to appropriate care, whether that's at the base hospital or at our local hospital in the psychiatric unit.

It's heavy negotiation for somebody who is already in an extreme situation. Oftentimes we find we have to divert ourselves to the municipal police or ambulance which, of course, adds to the trauma. Our goal is to be providing trauma-informed care, and we find this does undermine that.

We often get some assistance from the chaplain team and chain of command for those things, but I think that relates to the previous testimony that we just heard: that it can be a very bureaucratic and a traumatizing experience for a military member who is undergoing mental health issues.

Thank you.

11:35 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Karen McCrimmon

Thank you very much, Ms. Carlé. I appreciate that.

We're just going to stop here for a minute. They are going to try to reset the interpretation system here to see if we can get it back to operating. We'll give them five to 10 seconds, and then we'll hand the floor to Mr. Benzen to start the round of questions.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

Bob Benzen Conservative Calgary Heritage, AB

Mrs. Fynes, your opening remarks were very amazing. I thank you for them. It's touching, and I thank you for what you've done in terms of advocating for your son and for all the military members.

I'm interested in the journey that you've gone through in getting the information to learn what's happened to your son. As a parent, I know that I would want to know everything and that I would want to know every detail. I would want to know as soon as possible. I'm sure that all the other parents and families feel the same way. Can you talk a little bit about how the information...? Did you receive it easily? Was it difficult? Do you have all the information so far? What would you change in terms of getting all this information that you need?

11:35 a.m.

As an Individual

Sheila Fynes

We've had a very difficult journey, and it's been a very long one. We were initially notified of our son's death by phone. It was actually a telephone message that was left. We returned a call to the base and were told that Stuart had died. Later on that evening, a padre and an officer came to our home and spoke to us.

Our first reaction was that we'd told them this would happen. We knew Stuart was in trouble. We knew he needed help. We knew he wasn't getting the appropriate help. We knew that when he left the hospital the base didn't have a plan for him. It turned out that he was living in his car in the parking lot at the base. Eventually, he ended up at the duty room and had a further hospitalization. There were a lot of things that happened in succession. When we were notified, the first words out of my mouth were, “I told them this would happen.”

I think that because we wanted to know why this could have happened when everyone was aware of how much trouble he was in, we asked questions. The more questions we asked, the more the military closed in. I think, to be honest, they recognized that they'd messed up. They had a soldier who was dead and really didn't need to be. The more they closed up, the more questions we asked.

We went through a very painful funeral. We weren't given his suicide note for 15 months. We'd asked if he'd left one, and they said no. They designated someone else as his next of kin, and when we looked at the paperwork, it turned out that the person was definitely not his next of kin. It was a series of events that just kept piling on and piling on. Of course that made us angry, and in a way it almost helped put the grieving process on the shelf because by then we were asking, “What's going on here?”

We ended up having a board of inquiry that didn't really answer our questions and was definitely designed to have an outcome that protected the military. From there, eventually, as some of you may know, it ended up being a military police complaints commission inquiry that went on for some time and cost the military a tremendous amount of money. We became very vocal advocates.

There's nothing we can do to bring Stuart back. We recognize that, but we came to know a lot of serving members and people who had been released who were really at risk and were going through comparable situations. We would get phone calls. We became this very informal family whom they knew they could call. We still get calls from soldiers, sometimes in the middle of the night. Sometimes they've had a few drinks or whatever. We will always make time for them because our job is never to have another Stuart again.

We also have a secondary purpose, in that military people are really smart. When someone is seen to be struggling, they start walking this walk of shame, and they're disenfranchised and all the rest of it. They're not stupid. They know that if they put their hand up, this is not going to go well for them. Eventually they'll be released. They'll lose everything in life that's important to them.

Our goal now is for every single one of these soldiers.... They didn't die on the battlefield. If they die in an airplane between Dubai and here, their name is on a wall. If they come home and they're on sick leave and they die, for whatever reason, their name goes up on a wall. There is a recognition of their service. It's really important to this family, and I think it would send a really good message to other military serving members and their families that their service was important as well.

Sorry. That was a very long answer.