National Defence Committee on Nov. 3rd, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Ms. Mathyssen.

We're about to embark on the second round. Colleagues, I'll just remind you that the motion that was adopted was that the committee undertake a study into reports that former RCAF pilots have undertaken employment to train members of the People's Liberation Army Air Force. We are wandering a fair bit afield here. I'm not going to call relevance, but it is a narrow casting of a study.

With that, five minutes go to Mrs. Shelby Kramp-Neuman.

[Shelby Kramp-Neuman, Conservative, Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Thank you, Chair, and thank you, Brigadier-General Boucher.

Here is my first question. Can you speak to the 50% reduction in experienced fighter pilots that we've had since 2015?

[BGen Denis Boucher]

I'm afraid I cannot speak to that at all. It's outside of my area of expertise, and that's probably the first time I have heard that number.

[Shelby Kramp-Neuman, Conservative, Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON]

That's fair enough.

With regard to your earlier testimony, my concern is that we can't have it both ways. On the one hand, I understand you're taking this issue seriously, but on the other, you're referring to the Department of Justice for investigations. It seems as though it's a double-edged sword. Can you speak to that?

[BGen Denis Boucher]

Certainly.

The challenge we have in this space is that obviously these are retired Canadian Armed Forces members. We take our security obligations incredibly seriously within defence. Obviously that is my role in terms of reinforcing the security program: training, awareness and obligations of members under the Security of Information Act. These are things that are important to us. We need to consider how we can best protect our obligations to ensure the defence of Canada and the security of our members.

When members retire from the Canadian Armed Forces, they become civilians, like any other Canadian civilian. They fall under the jurisdiction of those federal partners.

This being said, if the federal partners decide they want to investigate any allegations that are out there, and they come to us to find out any information that could assist them with their investigation, we will of course work with those federal partners to ensure that they can best investigate and inform their investigation to determine what next steps would be taken.

[Shelby Kramp-Neuman, Conservative, Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Thank you.

Here is my next question. Can you confirm if you are aware that the Canadian Armed Forces have court-martialled retired generals in the past?

[BGen Denis Boucher]

I am not personally aware of that at all, no. It definitely does not fall within my purview, so I am not aware of that.

[Shelby Kramp-Neuman, Conservative, Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Thank you.

To my next question, considering the clearly obvious personnel catastrophe that we have in the military right now, do you understand or believe that the DND has the resources to monitor the threats we're speaking about at this committee right now?

[BGen Denis Boucher]

It's a bit of a speculative question. We don't monitor retired members, per se. That is not the purview of the Canadian Forces. We do not watch over Canadian citizens. It's not our purview to do so. Collection of information on Canadian citizens is not our purview.

[Shelby Kramp-Neuman, Conservative, Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Thank you very much for that.

[BGen Denis Boucher]

From my perspective as the DGDS, I'm responsible for ensuring we have a security program in place to protect our information, protect our members and protect Canada.

[Shelby Kramp-Neuman, Conservative, Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Thank you.

I'm going to split my time with Mr. Bezan.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

You have a little over a minute.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

The name of the company that is training the Chinese pilots and allegedly also has Canadians training Chinese pilots from the People's Liberation Army Air Force is the Test Flying Academy of South Africa. In a statement they've put out, they highlight that their training “is also available from other civilian contractors including organisations based in the United States, Canada, and European jurisdictions.”

Knowing they are training pilots from the People's Liberation Army Air Force, knowing there's the story of Canadians providing that training, would you be aware of which Canadian organization would be subcontracted to provide that training to the Test Flying Academy of South Africa?

[BGen Denis Boucher]

I am not aware of the name of any Canadian company that would potentially be providing that training. It's certainly not within my area of expertise, and as an army officer, I'm certainly not—

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

General, you said that you have responsibility for the enforcement under the National Defence Act of the sections that applied to the security of information and making sure members who are currently serving—and it applies to those who formerly have served—honour those commitments to ensure that their classifications and the information they know aren't shared with adversaries.

[BGen Denis Boucher]

I did indicate that I have responsibilities with regard to that. I have responsibilities with regard to that for serving members. As members retire, they are just Canadian citizens, and National Defence has no jurisdiction over those members. That jurisdiction then falls to our federal partners, and it is up to them.

On your question related to a specific Canadian company, I don't know that company at all. You asked if I did, and I do not.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Bezan.

Madam Lambropoulos, go ahead for five minutes, please.

[Emmanuella Lambropoulos, Liberal, Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank General Boucher for being with us today to answer some of our questions. I know a lot of them are quite repetitive. There's only so much you can say, and there's only so much that the armed forces have jurisdiction over, from what I understand, in terms of retired soldiers.

This is one of my questions. Of course, loyalty plays a really big role here, the fact that it is each person's responsibility, really, to make sure they don't divulge information that was protected information.

Can you tell us a bit about the process that exists to educate CAF members about their obligations both during and after their service? Is it known to them that, once they retire, this is not supposed to be something they do? Of course it should be common sense, but is there a specific process in place, and can you speak to that?

[BGen Denis Boucher]

I can absolutely speak to that. What I can tell you is that throughout a member's service, right from the start of basic training, we start to inculcate those values that are important not only to Canadian society but also to the Canadian Armed Forces, in terms of our values and ethics.

We speak to the integrity and security of information with respect to what we deal with, and it's a bit of a lifelong or career-long effort to continue to reinforce those values, to reinforce our obligations for security as members gradually work their way through different areas of responsibility and as they're afforded security clearances and the opportunity to treat and handle information that may be classified to different levels.

Members are informed of their obligations under the Security of Information Act. They're reminded of that as we renew security clearances periodically over time. A clearance lasts a certain number of years based on what kind it is. As those security clearances are updated or upgraded, again we have opportunities to disclose their obligations under the Security of Information Act and again, as I mentioned earlier, when members release, we have them fill out a specific form that requires them to acknowledge their obligations under the Security of Information Act as they retire. That's the final reminder, before they become regular Canadian citizens, that they must protect this information because it's important not only for the security of our members of the Canadian Forces but also for the security of Canada.

[Emmanuella Lambropoulos, Liberal, Saint-Laurent, QC]

That's right, and because it's so important to the security of Canada, of course, do you think—and I'm not sure you are able to give us your own opinions on such things—or is there anything you see, given that you know the system quite well, that could be improved in order to make sure the allegations we are hearing about don't happen in the future?

I understand that your jurisdiction ends once they retire, and that then you work with your federal partners, including the justice department. What else do you think could be done after the fact, once they have retired, to ensure that the information is protected?

[BGen Denis Boucher]

Throughout our careers, we have this repeated to us. The great thing about military training is that you never get it only once; you tend to get it multiple times throughout your career. These are the kinds of things we're trying to ensure we have in terms of values.

Loyalty is obviously a critical value for the Canadian Forces. We regularly have professional development sessions and different courses, throughout the different ranks, that will reinforce the values we hold dear. Those values are informed by Canadian society. They're the values we subscribe to as members of the Canadian Armed Forces, and security of information is one of those things that obviously we take very seriously.

From my perspective—I mean, you're asking for a bit of an opinion—I'm a member of the Canadian Forces and have been for 34 years. It is the kind of thing that has been effectively repeated to me for those 34 years.

I'm a proud Canadian citizen, and obviously I would not want to do anything that would potentially harm Canada and our citizens. We're incredibly fortunate to live in this country. I'd like to think that the messages we continue to push to our members, as we discuss and have opportunities to exchange with regard to those values and our obligations, bring that sense of belonging, that vocation. The loyalty is drilled in so that members would never want, even outside of uniform, to potentially harm Canada.

This being said, our policies and our procedures and our training are all in place, and we constantly look to update those things to ensure we keep repeating those messages. These are the kinds of things that, based on these allegations, we will probably continue to repeat, to ensure that members understand those obligations.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

We have to leave it there.

Ms. Normandin, you have two and a half minutes.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Once more, thank you very much Brigadier-General Boucher.

You mentioned that the defence department was collaborating with the authorities handling the investigation. I'm wondering whether this investigation also works in the other direction with a view to protecting our current pilots.

I'll give you an example of something I have thought of and would like to put it to you as a question.

Could the investigators give you information about the Canadian pilots who are training Chinese pilots? For example, they might inform you about how long they served in the armed forces, what kinds of aircraft they flew, and their knowledge of shortcomings in certain types of aircraft, with a view to protecting current pilots. They could be told what information the Chinese have in their possession, asked to put things right, or even make a number of strategy changes to protect pilots currently serving in the armed forces.

Is this the kind of collaboration you have?

[BGen Denis Boucher]

Thank you for your question, Ms. Normandin.

I believe that all we have at the moment are allegations. I don't know what kind of information the investigation will turn up, or even whether it will reveal details of this kind.

That kind of information would certainly be useful to us. Once we knew the names of these members, or their previous activities, we could determine how they can be protected, and whether our pilots are being exposed to any risks.

We are always concerned about the security of every one of our members, in addition to the security of Canadian Armed Forces and Department of National Defence information.

We are working closely with our federal partners to protect the security of Canadians.