National Defence Committee on March 7th, 2023

[Shelby Kramp-Neuman, Conservative, Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Thank you.

I'm going to leave the rest of my time to James.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

NORAD has responsibility both for airspace and for maritime domains. The Canadian Armed Forces, in a statement to The Globe and Mail at the end of February, said, “The Department of National Defence and Canadian Armed Forces...are fully aware of recent efforts by China to conduct surveillance operations in Canadian airspace and maritime approaches utilizing dual-purpose technologies,” referring to Chinese monitoring buoys in the Arctic that were retrieved by the Canadian Armed Forces.

How many buoys were recovered, and what was the purpose of those buoys in our Arctic?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Technically that's out of the range of the motion, but—

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

She talked about NORAD, and we're talking about Chinese surveillance, and they attribute it to China—

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Technically I think it's outside of the realm of the—

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Let the minister answer, if she prefers.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Technically, it is outside of the realm of the motion, but it is relevant to the larger issue at play here. If the minister wishes to respond, she's free to do so.

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

The buoys in Canadian waters were interdicted and retrieved. For operational security reasons and in an effort not to provide an adversarial advantage, I will say no more.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Bezan.

Madam Lambropoulos, you have four minutes. Go ahead, please.

[Emmanuella Lambropoulos, Liberal, Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for being here to answer some of our questions and for the clarity you're providing our committee.

In your opening statements, you spoke about the balloons and how the balloons entering Canadian and American airspace really allowed us to see NORAD in action.

As it was, very understandably, concerning to Canadians, it was quite public, so people were made to feel that our two countries were working together well in order to figure out what was going on and to take care of the situation.

You also spoke about major investments that the government is putting into NORAD over the next 20 years. I'm wondering if you and your team have begun working towards a more concrete plan on what types of investments will be made and how we will improve our capability as a military, as well as our combined capabilities alongside our partner, the United States. Was any light shed on the situation because of the incidents with the balloons? Is there anything that may have changed in the plan because of the incidents that occurred in February?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

I'll say first and foremost that the incidents that are the subject of this meeting highlight the importance and efficacy of NORAD, but they also highlight the importance of continuing to modernize our continental defence and to improve the processes on which NORAD activities are based.

As I mentioned in my introductory remarks, NORAD is the aerospace command that has been in place for 65 years. Last year, we made a commitment to upgrade our continental defence, to improve and modernize NORAD together with the United States, and what Canadians are going to see over the next number of years are continued investments in NORAD modernization that are going to support integrated systems that can defend against a broad range of air and missile threats. Let me give you some examples.

Investments in over-the-horizon radar layered with space-based surveillance will ensure that Canada and NORAD can detect and track modern threats. Modernizing command and control systems will enable senior leaders to make faster decisions more effectively in order to maximize deterrence and defence options. Advanced air-to-air missiles are capable of engaging threats from short-, medium- and long-distance ranges and are compatible with F-35s, which, as you know, we are procuring.

Augmenting key defence and logistics capabilities will extend the Canadian Armed Forces' range and mobility to respond to defence, security and safety concerns throughout Canada, including in the aerospace domain through NORAD.

That is what Ms. Normandin's question was about earlier.

Also, we are enhancing existing infrastructure in the north, which will ensure that Canada can safeguard its sovereignty by supporting new aircraft, enhancing more sustainable operations and presence in Canada's northern and remote regions, and pursuing ongoing research and development to better understand emerging technologies. What we are doing is not only in conjunction with the United States but also making sure that we are consulting indigenous and northern peoples in an effort to be true to reconciliation.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Madam Lambropoulos.

Madam Normandin, you have a minute and a half.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you.

With the little time I have, I'm going to ask a two-part question.

Since you changed the filters, we are able to detect small objects. Can we do this while continuing to detect larger objects as before? Or do we do it alternately because we don't have enough resources?

If we have the resources to do both at the same time, why didn't we do it earlier, since we already knew that China was developing some expertise, especially in balloons and smaller objects?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

It is important to remember that we have the ability to see all the things we need to see thanks to NORAD.

The Chief of the Defence Staff may have something else to add.

[Gen Wayne D. Eyre]

It does take more effort and work to find the small items. That's why we focused on the bigger and faster objects. During the next meeting, I will be able to talk about some projects to improve our capabilities.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you.

Ms. Mathyssen, you have a minute and a half, please.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

In terms of some of the things that have been talked about, obviously the importance of NORAD and that relationship and the sharing of information are all very clear, and certainly I agree with that. However, President Biden held a press conference on February 16 and was talking about how his administration was going to change its internal policies when it came to shooting down these UAPs. They put forward the national security adviser, Mr. Sullivan, who was talking about creating an inter-agency group to decide that policy specifically.

NORAD obviously is a binational organization. It is separate from that leadership. However, this inter-agency group will be making some key policy changes and decisions on how they deal with these UAPs. How will Canada be involved in that? How will we ensure that NORAD is kept at that higher level? Also, is Canada doing the same thing in terms of developing inter-agency policy changes?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

The United States' shooting down of the objects on February 10 and February 12 was done under the aegis of USNORTHCOM, whereas the shooting down over Yukon was done under the aegis of NORAD. Some of the initiatives the United States are taking relate to their internal processes within USNORTHCOM and those organizations.

In terms of what we are doing here in Canada to improve our processes, as I said, we are continually looking to improve. We are coordinating across the NORAD region to amass lessons observed during the event, to determine if any seams in reporting exist and to address them right away. We are also having a multidepartmental after-action debrief to review how the Canadian Armed Forces and other involved departments feed information and contribute to air security processes such as this one.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

We are going to have to leave the response there. Thank you.

Mr. Kelly, go ahead for four minutes, please.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Minister, the PRC has in recent weeks violated Canadian airspace and our territorial waters, interfered with elections, intimidated Canadian citizens and operated illegal police stations. As the Minister of Defence, in light of this, in particular the airspace violation, can you tell us if there have been any repercussions for or reprimand of any of the PRC's diplomats?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

I believe that Global Affairs Canada did indeed take some actions relating to these incidents.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

You're not involved in that. Is that something that you—

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

There were reprimands, but they do not occur under the jurisdiction of the Department of National Defence.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Has your government declared anybody persona non grata as a result of these illegal acts?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

As I said, Global Affairs Canada took action.