Evidence of meeting #52 for National Defence in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was objects.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Wayne D. Eyre  Chief of the Defence Staff, Canadian Armed Forces, Department of National Defence
Darcy Molstad  Deputy Commander, Canadian Joint Operations Command, Canadian Armed Forces, Department of National Defence
Bill Matthews  Deputy Minister, Department of National Defence
Jonathan Quinn  Director General, Continental Defence Policy, Department of National Defence

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

I call this meeting to order.

I see that it's after 3:30 p.m. I see that our witnesses are in place. I see that we have quorum.

We thank the minister for appearing. The minister and her colleagues are appearing pursuant to a motion adopted by this committee, which reads in part:

That the Standing Committee on National Defence invite the Minister of National Defence...to appear as soon as possible [along with various other named people in the Defence Department] and all other relevant officials from the Canadian Armed Forces [to] appear within the next week, to provide a briefing of no fewer than two hours concerning the high-altitude surveillance balloon from the People's Republic of China that recently violated Canadian airspace, and that the briefing be held in public.

With that, I call upon the minister for her opening statement. Then, we will proceed to questions.

Thank you, Minister, and welcome.

3:35 p.m.

Oakville Ontario

Liberal

Anita Anand LiberalMinister of National Defence

Thank you so much, Mr. Chair and members of the Standing Committee on National Defence.

Good afternoon, everyone. Bonjour.

Last month the North American Aerospace Defence Command—NORAD—detected, identified and tracked a high-altitude surveillance balloon from the People's Republic of China, along with three subsequent objects over North America. Fighter aircraft took down the four unauthorized airborne objects in Canadian and American airspace.

Any unauthorized entry into our airspace is deeply troubling.

Such actions underscore the evolving threats Canada faces here at home in a world defined by strategic competition and uncertainty.

However, they also highlight the efficacy and continued importance of our binational military command with the United States through NORAD.

Canada and the U.S. share a unique military bond through NORAD.

Canadian and American personnel from the Canadian, Alaskan and Continental U.S. NORAD regions prevent air attacks against North America, and safeguard the sovereign airspaces of Canada and the United States by responding to unknown, unwanted, and unauthorized activities near or within our airspace. This agreement has kept us safe for 65 years.

The downing of these objects clearly demonstrates the efficacy of NORAD. In Yukon, for example, NORAD detected this object and launched Canadian and U.S. fighter aircraft to investigate. At the direction of the Prime Minister, aircraft assigned to NORAD successfully took down the object. This was the first time that a NORAD operation had downed an aerial object in Canada.

Clearly, NORAD remains a powerful and effective command. Still, we know that it needs to be modernized to meet current and future threats as well as technological developments, and that is why last year our government committed almost $40 billion in funding for the modernization of Canadian NORAD capabilities over the next 20 years, in close collaboration with the United States.

Through a broad spectrum of investments, we are going to be improving our ability to detect and deter evolving threats and future-proof our continental defences for decades to come.

Those recent events in our airspace are a stark reminder of NORAD's renewed importance and why these detection capabilities are necessary for our safety.

I'll now turn back to the recent incidents.

In early February, we first analyzed the situation regarding the Chinese surveillance balloon to determine whether the object posed an imminent threat to Canadians. We then took additional steps to safeguard sensitive information from potential surveillance.

When it was determined that the balloon did not pose an imminent threat, we worked with our U.S. counterparts to conduct further analysis and determine our next steps.

Finally, as with each subsequent aerial object, it was taken down in a way that ensured no civilians were harmed and with consideration for potential damage to infrastructure, on February 6. Debris was recovered by the United States Navy and the U.S. Coast Guard and transferred to the Federal Bureau of Investigation for further analysis.

Throughout this process and with each subsequent aerial object, we remained committed to keeping Canadians and Americans well informed of our activities and continued that ongoing effort. As soon as it was deemed appropriate, we shared information about each balloon's whereabouts publicly and regularly updated our citizens about our efforts across a variety of channels.

While we do not assess that these other aerial objects pose a similar threat to China's high-altitude surveillance balloon, we know we must remain vigilant. And we must keep our citizens well informed and aware of any potential risks.

The surveillance balloon episode underscores the fact that there are state actors willing to violate our sovereignty and territorial integrity for their own aims.

And we, along with our U.S. counterparts, are ready to act against shared threats.

Mr. Chair, our joint response to these unauthorized aerial objects is a strong example of NORAD in action: bilateral decision-making, close coordination and decisive action in response to common threats.

These actions show the continued value and relevance of our binational command and its missions. And, in a world in which Canada faces new threats from authoritarian regimes, we must do everything we can to protect our people, our country, and our continent.

I thank you for having me here today, and I look forward to taking your questions.

Finally, in terms of my remarks, I'd like to thank the Canadian Armed Forces and NORAD command for having the watch.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Thank you, Minister.

Before I open up to the first round, I remind colleagues that the minister is here pursuant to the motion I read into the record earlier today. While there may be an almost irresistible temptation to stray from the motion, I will encourage members to ask questions relevant to the motion.

Mr. Bezan for six minutes, please.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank the minister for being here. I also want to reiterate her comments that we thank the Canadian Armed Forces and NORAD for their diligence in making sure we stay safe here at home and deal with something that was rather peculiar and that we've never had to deal with in the past.

Minister, I know we talk about the first surveillance balloon that was shot down off the coast of the Atlantic seaboard of the United States as originating from the communist regime in Beijing. Can you confirm whether or not that was being operated by the People's Liberation Army?

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Anita Anand Liberal Oakville, ON

I can simply confirm that it was a surveillance balloon that originated in China. That is what I am tracking; that is what Canada is tracking, and—

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

You won't disclose what the surveillance equipment was for, what it was being used for—the nefarious purpose that we all assume has to be military in nature and has to be related back to the People's Liberation Army.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Anita Anand Liberal Oakville, ON

I actually would be very careful about making assumptions at this point. The debris that was shot down and retrieved off the coast of the United States near Myrtle Beach is still being analyzed. We will be ensuring that we work with NORAD and the United States in this process, and at the appropriate time we will provide information as it becomes available.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

Okay, and I assume that would be from the U.S., since it's in U.S. waters that the debris was recovered.

When we look at the other three balloons, have you been able to determine the origin of those aircraft?

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Anita Anand Liberal Oakville, ON

As you know, the recovery efforts were curtailed because of remote and rugged terrain. There is no indication that they are state-affiliated, but the recovery efforts were curtailed and any other available information that is obtained will be shared, of course, and—

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

The debris that's in Yukon, Minister, the search for that debris will be resumed in the spring, after the spring thaw and when things are safe enough to go back up into the mountainous areas.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Anita Anand Liberal Oakville, ON

To begin, it was Public Safety, not DND, that had jurisdiction over that search and recovery. DND, including special forces, including multiple aircraft and including the FBI, was participating, but the search was being led by Public Safety, so the decision—

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

At the same time, 130 members of the Canadian Armed Forces were on the ground. I would assume that in the spring there would be either reserve troops or rangers or full-time members of the Canadian Armed Forces made available for that recovery effort.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Anita Anand Liberal Oakville, ON

Again, I would be careful about making assumptions. The importance of the safety and security of the Canadian Armed Forces and all people on the ground was extremely important. At this point, as I said, there is no indication that these objects were state-affiliated. At this point, the search was called off by Public Safety.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

Minister, I wanted to get a clarification. Under NORAD we had scrambled some CF-18s. According to Major-General Prévost, who appeared here on February 17, it was only a matter of minutes before Canadian CF-18s would have intercepted the balloon in Yukon. However, the F-22s were there ahead of us, and the U.S. fighter jets took it down.

However, if you look at some of the other information that came out here from the Department of Defense in the United States, they also said that when the balloon entered Canadian airspace it was Canadian CF-18 fighter jets and CP-140 Aurora aircraft that did a closer examination of that asset.

Why wasn't it shot down at that point in time, rather than bringing those fighter jets home and then scrambling F-22s to take it out?

Was it a capability issue?

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Anita Anand Liberal Oakville, ON

I'm going to ask my chief of defence staff—

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

I can have General Eyre answer that in the second hour if you're unable to.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Anita Anand Liberal Oakville, ON

It's not that I'm unable to, but there is an operational component to the decisions that were being made. I will say, at a broad level, that both countries' aircraft under NORAD were being scrambled. The decision to take down the suspected balloon was made by the Prime Minister, using NORAD assets, after phone calls with President Biden and with the Secretary of Defense, Lloyd Austin.

I just want to clarify your question, because I'm wondering if you were mixing up two incidents in your question.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

No. Based upon the testimony we received and also on what's been coming out of the White House and the Department of Defense, there seems to be a disconnect there. I just want to get clarification on that. We'll do that in the second hour.

John Kirby, from the U.S. White House's national security advisory committee, actually mentioned that there have been five previous instances of balloons that have travelled across North America. Three of them were under the Trump administration and two were under the Biden administration. He said that the previous incursions were just for brief periods of time.

I'm assuming that they briefly entered Alaska and then they were over Canadian airspace.

I just wanted to get confirmation on whether or not that happened.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Anita Anand Liberal Oakville, ON

I am tracking four incidents that I have indicated to you thus far of suspected Chinese balloons: February 4, Alaska; February 10, central Yukon; February 11, Lake Huron; and February 12—

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

You don't know anything about previous incidents or up to 2017.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Anita Anand Liberal Oakville, ON

If I could just get to that, none of those previous incidents that you referred to, to my knowledge, entered Canadian airspace.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

Do you know whether or not NORAD detected those balloons and aircraft at that time, between 2017 and 2022?

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Anita Anand Liberal Oakville, ON

Not to my knowledge.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

Okay.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Thank you, Mr. Bezan.

Ms. O'Connell is next for six minutes, please.