Natural Resources Committee on June 17th, 2008

[Lloyd St. Amand, Liberal, Brant, ON]

Right.

[Dr. Nigel Lockyer]

I would never say it's a no go, but it's a question of how much time and effort you want to put into it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Mr. Tonks, you have time for one question.

[Alan Tonks, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

It's really on the line of the question.

Mr. Binder, you said the behaviour of the MAPLE 1 reactor differed from the model projections. I guess the surprise is that you've outlined the expertise of the CNSB staff and so on, and the question is why it took so long, even if it was just from a safety point of view, which is your mandate.

[Dr. Michael Binder]

Right.

[Alan Tonks, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

Out of that particular regulatory piece of the process, was anything put back to AECL with respect to the MAPLE on the practical aspects of whether it was going to be possible?

[Dr. Michael Binder]

No. Safety was not the driver for discontinuing the MAPLE. Lack of understanding of how it operates was.

Again I come back to people believing that science is a slam-dunk--you know, you can do this, and it's no problem. This was never done in that small a configuration with AECL.

Yes, it's surprising that they couldn't figure it out, absolutely, but that's the problem with science. You sometimes don't get it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Thank you, Mr. St. Amand and Mr. Tonks.

We go now to Monsieur Ouellet for up to five minutes.

[Christian Ouellet, Bloc, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you to the witnesses for coming today.

Mr. Binder, a little earlier you said that the current reactor could be upgraded safely. If it is completely upgraded, then according to you it could be productive and safe.

Was there any point in investing half a billion dollars in the MAPLE reactor if the former reactor could be refitted?

[Michael Binder]

It's always a question of money. It could be refitted but that would be more costly than building new reactors. Furthermore, we decided to build a reactor specifically for the production of isotopes. Refitting the NRUs could be very costly, so we'll see.

[Christian Ouellet, Bloc, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

There seems to be a culture of silence in the nuclear industry. You said that with respect to the commission's meetings, everything is posted and public, but that is not the case for the Chalk River plants or reactor. It's almost as if we were dealing with nuclear weapons in the army, but that's not the case.

Is there a public information protocol for incidents or accidents in Chalk River or elsewhere? Has a protocol been adopted by the CNSC?

[Michael Binder]

Absolutely. Every incident has to be reported within a formal process. It is tabled before the courts and it becomes public.

[Christian Ouellet, Bloc, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Does that protocol specify the time period between the accident or incident and public disclosure? Are we talking about hours, days or weeks?

[Michael Binder]

We receive the information as quickly as possible. It becomes public as soon as there is a public meeting. That is where there may be a delay.

[Christian Ouellet, Bloc, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Could a week go by before people living near Darlington, de Gentilly or Chalk River become aware that something has happened?

[Michael Binder]

Yes, that could happen.

[Christian Ouellet, Bloc, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Who decides internally, who has that authority? Is it you or someone from the plant who is sufficiently aware of the risk that radiation poses for the environment and for individuals? Who decides whether the public will be alerted immediately or not?

[Michael Binder]

If it is very dangerous, there are certain protocols. They specify how people will be informed. If it is very dangerous, there is a protocol for that and it is public. We're talking about an incident such as closing reactors for unforeseen reasons.

[Christian Ouellet, Bloc, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Is that disclosure based on the amount of radiation or not? Is it because radiation will leak into the atmosphere?

[Michael Binder]

Yes, if there is a radiation leak, it is absolutely necessary to alert everyone, but that doesn't happen.

[Christian Ouellet, Bloc, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Mr. Binder, without there necessarily being an explosion, gases within the concrete cell can be radioactive. That is the case in Gentilly and that was the case in Darlington, and people were not alerted. Where does it go? It can't go anywhere else but into the air.

[Dr. Michael Binder]

All I can say is on my watch over the last five months there have been a couple of significant development reports, or SDRs. An SDR is a document that absolutely has to be tabled in front of the commission and talks about a particular incident. If it's an incident that in any way threatens the environment or the public, there's a protocol for making it public with the community.

[Christian Ouellet, Bloc, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

I come back to my question. You have a document. If the MAPLE reactor had exploded when the start-up button was pressed, how many hours would have passed before people living around Chalk River became aware of this?

[Michael Binder]

I am not familiar with the details of the protocol, but I know there is one. I could send it to the committee.

[Christian Ouellet, Bloc, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Yes, I would like you to table it; it would be very interesting to know this. In some cases, a week has gone by. In the month of April, something happened at Gentilly and a week went by before this was disclosed to the public. The mayor learned about it the following morning in a restaurant, Mr. Binder.