Evidence of meeting #13 for Natural Resources in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was information.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Brian Gray  Assistant Deputy Minister, Earth Sciences Sector, Department of Natural Resources
Linda Richard  Coordinator, Geomapping for Energy and Minerals, Department of Natural Resources
Donna Kirkwood  Acting Director General, Geological Survey of Canada, Central and Northern Canada, Department of Natural Resources
John Percival  Program Manager, Geomapping for Energy, Department of Natural Resources

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Good afternoon, everyone. It's good to be back here again for our Wednesday meeting.

We're continuing with our study on resource development in northern Canada. We have witnesses back—I see it's not all the same witnesses—from the Department of Natural Resources today to take over from where we left off when the last meeting was interrupted.

We have with us Dr. Brian Gray, assistant deputy minister, earth sciences sector; Dr. John Percival, program manager, geomapping for energy; Dr. Donna Kirkwood, acting director general, Geological Survey of Canada, central and northern Canada; and Linda Richard, coordinator, geomapping for energy and minerals.

Welcome to you all. Thank you very much for coming today,

If we could start, Dr. Gray, with your presentation, then we'll get right down to questions and comments from members.

3:30 p.m.

Dr. Brian Gray Assistant Deputy Minister, Earth Sciences Sector, Department of Natural Resources

Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here again.

What I thought we would do, based on the questions we heard last time and some of the uncertainties, is focus this short presentation on two areas. One is to give a little more detail about the tool box that we have at our disposal in the geosciences. The second is to go into a little more depth on the outputs we have, how we disseminate information and, within that, how we engage communities.

Let's look at page 2.

Each layer in the image to the right represents a specific type of dataset: bedrock geology, surficial geology, geophysics, geochemistry, geochronology, mineral showings, topography, satellite images, etc.

Note that the layers depicted here do not correlate with the depth below the surface, rather they are best thought of as tools in the geoscience toolbox. Consequently, depending on the type of problem that we are tackling, we will choose the appropriate series of tools from the toolbox. Data can be acquired remotely, for instance through satellite imagery, geophysical airborne surveys, by surveys in the field, or in the lab.

Today, in this presentation, we provide three examples, wherein three different tools are used.

The first example is on page 3. In the north, most of the bedrock is covered by glacial debris left behind 8,000 years ago; these are known as surficial deposits. In order to understand the geology of the rocks hidden beneath the till, we use geophysical surveys. In this slide, we have removed the surficial deposits—left image—to show you what the geophysical survey sees. Geophysical surveys provide us with physical properties of the rock, for example the magnetic field of the bedrock. Hidden mineral deposits can be detected through the glacial overburden, which may be as much as 100 metres thick. This allows geologists to trace units and produce interpretative maps, even when they can't see the rocks.

In summary, we use geophysics to provide an image of the bedrock and to highlight mineralized environments.

Turning to page 4, the second example, we have to recall that glacial ice up to two kilometres thick once covered this part of Canada during the last ice age. The glaciers ground up rock and material and distributed it across the land, as I explained with the previous slide. Buried deposits have halos or trails of mineral concentrations, sometimes kilometres long, that lead back to the source of the mineral.

Geochemical maps, shown in the image on the left, provide an indication of the types of mineral deposits to expect, and clues as to where to find them. Geochemical anomalies help identify prospective areas and possible mineral deposit types.

The third example is on page 5. Another tool in our tool box is geochronology, which deals with the age of the rock. We may identify the need to determine the age of certain rock units to understand the geological history of an area. With this understanding, we can formulate new hypotheses, and develop a new geological framework or frameworks. This helps focus exploration on the most prospective units.

The image on the top is a geological bedrock map identifying different geological units found on the Melville Peninsula in Nunavut. A grain of zircon is extracted from a rock unit, which is the middle left image. It is then analyzed with the sophisticated laboratory equipment that you see in the bottom photo.

One grain can yield a complex history, as we've tried to illustrate here. This is one grain. You can see, in this case, there are two different ages from two different geological events. These ages are depicted in millions of years. The outer part of the grain is 1.8 billion years old, and the internal grain is 2.5 billion years old.

This approach helps to pinpoint age of mineralization versus the age of the formation of the rock. Later, during the question session, our experts can get into why that's important. Information acquired through the various tools, such as these three I've just highlighted, are integrated to produce a final interpretation of the geology, including an assessment of prospective mineral environments and exploration potential.

Let us move on to page 6.

You will recall that at the last meeting, we talked about our outputs in the annex. The following slides highlight additional facts on GEM outputs.

GEM has conducted 24 geophysical surveys across the north, covering an area roughly equivalent to the size of Newfoundland, Labrador and Nova Scotia combined. The primary purpose of these maps is to help guide field mapping, by imaging major features. However, exploration companies also use this information directly to identify new targets.

Let's move on to page 7.

GEM's 424 publications are available free of charge to the public for download on NRCan's fully searchable GEOSCAN database. These files include geophysical surveys, geological maps, raw data and scientific articles which have been subject to the peer-review process.

The GEOSCAN database also includes metadata and abstracts for several of GEM's scientific and technical presentations. GEM researchers have made more than 284 presentations at industry oriented events. Examples of such events include the annual provincial and territorial open houses, such as the Yukon Geoscience Forum and the Nunavut Mining Symposium. Scientists have also made 93 scientific presentations at societies and scientific associations conferences such as the joint meeting of the Geological Association of Canada and Mineralogical Association of Canada or the American Geophysical Union annual meeting. They also supervised the 16 thesis publications which have already been produced by the program.

Finally, note that delivery strategies vary on a project to project basis.

Turning to page 8, the GEM technical information is being made available to local communities as well. For example, a web service tool is being developed by Arctic College in Iqaluit to make local geoscience accessible to northerners.

The Arctic College is using GEM Cumberland Peninsula information, and this is being done via a GEM grant that we have given Arctic College. This web service tool is being updated with new GEM data and information as it becomes available.

Moving on to page 9, all of this information is released to the public free, and it's accessible online. NRCan is recognized as a leader in open data, which is to make data available all for free. GEM is making all data, information, and knowledge available online at no fee, and through an unrestricted licence. This ensures a level playing field within industry and between industry and communities. Open access to our information is helping promote Canada's north to investors.

GEM publications can be discovered from more than one dissemination portal. I've already mentioned GEOSCAN, but there's also GeoPub, GeoRef, CrossRef, Google and Google Books. As well, there is an RSS news release function that can be subscribed to.

GEM also provides geoscience information to multiple stakeholders. We provided many examples, in our earlier presentation, of how GEM information supported industry decisions, but the same information can also help northerners make sound, sustainable economic decisions. What we've tried to illustrate in this slide of the surficial geology map is that it is not only important for the exploration industry to understand the underlying glacial history for the source of precious metals or diamonds, but it also can be used by land use planners to identify sources of aggregate or areas of permafrost sensitivity. In developing geological mapping, the open data is useful to not only the development industry but also to the planners of towns and territories and provinces.

Moving on to page 10, there are essentially three phases, if we could simplify, to our community engagement. We start at the beginning with letters, community meetings, and we acquire permits that are necessary. We meet with the Inuit, first nations, and Métis to acquire traditional knowledge. During the project, we hire field assistants whenever we can who are local. We hire wildlife monitors, as I discussed at our last meeting. We present public presentations and we develop, where feasible, field courses. In part three, the closure and beyond, we develop workshops, school presentations, we work with local levels of government, post-secondary institutions, and we transfer various sorts of knowledge.

The GEM program has developed its community engagement practices under the guidance of the advisory group of northerners that I mentioned at our last appearance. I remind you, this advisory group of northerners provides advice to the GEM program from a northern perspective regarding community engagement during project development, planning, delivery and communication of results thereafter. This advisory group of northerners includes representatives from aboriginal communities and associations, territorial governments, educational institutions, and northern exploration industry.

Moving on on to the final slide, page 11, I'd like to make three points here. First of all, with reference to the goals of the program, GEM has made notable progress in our first three and a half years. We are already seeing significant use by industry of GEM information. We're seeing new investment in the north, and some encouraging discoveries to date. Although not yet complete, the program—we feel—is on track to achieving the projected investment leverage.

Our second point here is that there is also evidence that GEM is achieving its goal of having communities use public geoscience information. The best example comes from the Cumberland project on Baffin Island, where the community has requested a short course on diamond prospecting and mining. Another example is a recent invitation to present at the annual Kivalliq regional mayors annual meeting to present GEM results in the Melville Peninsula area.

Finally, GEM is contributing to the training of the next generation of highly qualified geoscientists. At least 38 students are on their way to graduate degrees with northern research experience, and another 50 undergraduate students have also been trained. Early indications are that industry is welcoming these new young scientists into the workforce.

Mr. Chairman, this concludes my presentation. Thank you.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Thank you very much, Mr. Gray. That was another extremely interesting presentation, a great way to start off today's meeting.

We'll go now to the seven-minute round. I have Mr. Allen to start, then Mr. Stewart, then Mr. McGuinty.

Mr. Allen, you have up to seven minutes, please.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Mike Allen Conservative Tobique—Mactaquac, NB

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses for coming back.

I just want to follow up on a couple of things. Toward the end of the presentation you talked about community engagement and also the advisory group and that type of thing that you're actually using. Do these folks with whom you are actually engaging follow through the whole process, and would they be involved, for example, when it comes to permitting or anything like that? Would your community engagement people be involved in any of that process as well?

3:45 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Earth Sciences Sector, Department of Natural Resources

Dr. Brian Gray

I think it would be best if I turned this over to Linda or Donna.

Linda Richard.

3:45 p.m.

Linda Richard Coordinator, Geomapping for Energy and Minerals, Department of Natural Resources

The advisory group of northerners is a group of 12 representatives from the three territories, and there are members from industry and from education, first nations people, and government representatives.

We meet with this group every six months and we have discussions about some of the challenges we are facing on the delivery of the program. It also provides advice in advance to avoid certain issues. That is its role. It provides regular advice.

The permitting process is a different process. Yes, the group will provide advice. For example, it has advised us about traditional knowledge to ensure we incorporate traditional knowledge in our submissions on permitting. That is the type of assistance it gives us in the permitting process.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Mike Allen Conservative Tobique—Mactaquac, NB

Thank you.

Just going on a little bit from that process and going to the next phase of questioning, when you look at the proportion you have mapped as part of GEM now, what percentage have you mapped now versus the next phases you are going to do?

Specifically, in one of the early meetings we had on this, we had a map of the territories that showed some of the sensitive areas. Now we see other maps where some of the resources are actually located.

For example, on your slide 9 you have the permafrost and you have some other areas. Do you anticipate you've going to do an overlay of some of the minerals and some other things with the sensitive areas so that when someone goes in and actually looks at an area, you have all that information in one place so that the sensitive areas can be seen as well as the minerals, and ways can be considered to actually mitigate impacts?

3:50 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Earth Sciences Sector, Department of Natural Resources

Dr. Brian Gray

That's an excellent question. I'l let Donna answer that, as the director general for this program.

There are two programs we have going on. We have the GEM program, and we also have an ongoing program of environmental geoscience. That group is looking in the north specifically at vulnerabilities associated with melting permafrost.

Donna, perhaps you could go into a little more detail on how we get the GEM program information and our environmental geoscience together.

3:50 p.m.

Donna Kirkwood Acting Director General, Geological Survey of Canada, Central and Northern Canada, Department of Natural Resources

Thank you.

The GEM program objectives are clear. They are to map the north to modern standards, to produce the geoscience knowledge upgraded so that industry will have the right information to reduce its risks for exploration, and also, as we said, to provide updated knowledge for communities for their land use decisions. Those objectives are clear.

Things like permafrost sensitivity, for example, if that's what you mean by sensitive areas, are things we are not necessarily mapping for under the GEM program. But in our other programs, which Dr. Gray referred to—the climate change geoscience program or the environmental geoscience program—as we are gaining this new knowledge and this new information on the north, if the information acquired has some impact on our other program objectives, we'll integrate that into our new project planning but not in the GEM program per se.

It also does provide us internally with some additional information on the geoscience knowledge that we would look into more in depth under the other programs, but not necessarily under the GEM program. That was not in the objectives of the GEM program to start off with.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Mike Allen Conservative Tobique—Mactaquac, NB

The intent would be to have a strategy to try to knit these things together, is that true?

3:50 p.m.

Acting Director General, Geological Survey of Canada, Central and Northern Canada, Department of Natural Resources

Donna Kirkwood

Eventually, at the end of this five-year program, we'll see where we are and what information we have garnered, and that will certainly potentially be integrated into our A-base programs, our other programs: climate geoscience program, climate change geoscience, or environmental geoscience program.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Mike Allen Conservative Tobique—Mactaquac, NB

Okay.

When you look at the technologies and techniques involved in collecting all this information, we had some people in here--I wasn't at the meeting--with some pretty neat technology from the planes; they could do some pretty neat things in terms of looking at this.

Who are the main providers of this? Is it the federal-provincial agencies? Is it mostly the private sector? And who's collecting all this information? Obviously you're trying to knit this together into one little quilt called the north. How does that all come together? Who's providing these technologies?

3:50 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Earth Sciences Sector, Department of Natural Resources

Dr. Brian Gray

I think we'll let Dr. Percival take that one.

3:50 p.m.

Dr. John Percival Program Manager, Geomapping for Energy, Department of Natural Resources

We collect geological and some geophysical information, but to plan our work we make use of whatever information is out there and available, information that can be obtained for free or purchased. For example, satellite imagery that's collected through commercial enterprise is available. That's a useful tool for planning where we're going to go on the ground and work. It makes our work much more efficient.

We're not involved in collecting all the different data sets that relate to the north. We do collect some that are relevant to our program, and then we use others that are relevant as well.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Mike Allen Conservative Tobique—Mactaquac, NB

Who actually owns the technologies?

3:50 p.m.

Program Manager, Geomapping for Energy, Department of Natural Resources

Dr. John Percival

The technologies?

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Mike Allen Conservative Tobique—Mactaquac, NB

Is it the private sector?

3:50 p.m.

Program Manager, Geomapping for Energy, Department of Natural Resources

Dr. John Percival

Things like Radarsat, and....

3:50 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Earth Sciences Sector, Department of Natural Resources

Dr. Brian Gray

Right; if we're talking about Radarsat, then that would be Radarsat-2, and it's MacDonald, Dettwiler and Associates. That's their satellite. We have an agreement as the federal system to have access to all the data through a licence agreement, but I think in airborne geophysical work we would be using private sector.

Dr. Percival.

3:55 p.m.

Program Manager, Geomapping for Energy, Department of Natural Resources

Dr. John Percival

We use the private sector to acquire the data, but we own the data.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Mike Allen Conservative Tobique—Mactaquac, NB

We may own the data, but we provide it open source, free?

3:55 p.m.

Program Manager, Geomapping for Energy, Department of Natural Resources

Dr. John Percival

That's right.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Thank you, Mr. Allen, your time is up.

Mr. Stewart, you have up to seven minutes. Go ahead, please.

November 16th, 2011 / 3:55 p.m.

NDP

Kennedy Stewart NDP Burnaby—Douglas, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I think these two presentations have shown very impressive technology and use of this information. I'm beginning to understand how valuable this mapping information is for kick-starting exploration and later extraction, so thank you for your presentation.

I also like how you make efforts to share this information with industry and public institutions. Being from an academic institution, I'm glad you're helping to graduate so many master's and Ph.D. students.

I'm interested in just how far GEM can go in terms of identifying all types of energy sources. I'm especially interested in how geomapping might be employed to identify and map renewable resources such as geothermal, wind, waves, tidal, solar, anything that would be renewable. I envision maps that would look like these, but would have different kinds of resources other than oil or other minerals.

Just to follow up on Ms. Kirkwood's point that this again might reduce the risks for industries that are interested in investing in those kinds of resources in the north, does the department have any kind of capacity to use this geomapping to go beyond mapping mineral deposits and perhaps map other types of renewable energy resources?

3:55 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Earth Sciences Sector, Department of Natural Resources

Dr. Brian Gray

I can start that, and then my experts can correct me if I'm wrong.

On the geomapping program we would not be able to have any sort of mapping of renewable energy related to wind, tidal, or solar. On the geothermal side--this is where I can get a little help from my colleagues--the Geological Survey of Canada recently released a publication on a “geothermal potential” map of Canada.

Donna, I don't know how far north it went, if it was all of Canada or if it was south of 60.