Evidence of meeting #18 for Natural Resources in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was sibbeston.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Glen Sibbeston  Chief Pilot, Trinity Helicopters
Bradley Gemmer  President, Gem Steel Edmonton Ltd.

December 5th, 2011 / 3:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Good afternoon, everyone. We're continuing our study on resource development in northern Canada.

We invited three witnesses for today. Apparently the clerk and analyst couldn't arrange to have one witness come; that was an NDP witness. So we have with us today two witnesses.

From Trinity Helicopters, we have Glen Sibbeston, chief pilot; and from Gem Steel Edmonton Ltd., we have Bradley Gemmer, president. Welcome to both of you, and thank you for coming.

We'll have the presentations in the order they appear in the orders of the day.

Would you go ahead, Mr. Sibbeston, for up to 10 minutes?

3:25 p.m.

NDP

Kennedy Stewart NDP Burnaby—Douglas, BC

Mr. Chair, I have just three quick administration questions before we move on to the witnesses.

3:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Okay, go ahead, Mr. Stewart.

3:25 p.m.

NDP

Kennedy Stewart NDP Burnaby—Douglas, BC

First of all, we had a little bit of a talk about interim reports for our reporting. I was just wondering if we could set some time aside on December 14 to talk about the possibility of issuing interim reports on, say, geomapping. Could we set that aside so that we could talk about that on December 14?

3:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

On December 14 we have the whole meeting set for future business, so certainly there is no problem with that. Whatever you bring up, we will discuss as one of the issues.

3:25 p.m.

NDP

Kennedy Stewart NDP Burnaby—Douglas, BC

Thank you.

The second question is whether we have a list of our upcoming witnesses, even for next week. We have at least one day for witnesses for this. If we could have that list a little bit in advance, that would be great.

3:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

That is for the forestry industry.

3:25 p.m.

NDP

Kennedy Stewart NDP Burnaby—Douglas, BC

We have that one. Is December 14 entirely...?

3:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

December 14 is entirely on future business.

3:25 p.m.

NDP

Kennedy Stewart NDP Burnaby—Douglas, BC

Maybe we could have the names of the January witnesses a little bit in advance.

3:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

We'll see what we have in that regard. Our regular clerk is apparently home ill. We have a substitute clerk—and thank you for being here.

Do you have one more comment?

3:25 p.m.

NDP

Kennedy Stewart NDP Burnaby—Douglas, BC

On the third issue, you and Mr. Anderson just approached me about discussing the motion on December 14. For those of you who don't know, I've tabled a motion to conduct a study on the current state of oil pipelines and refining capacity in Canada. That would include a section on future industry in Canada. I have talked with my colleagues, and we're happy to discuss that on December 14.

3:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Very good. We'll discuss it with the rest of future business. Thank you very much. We appreciate that, Mr. Stewart.

Now I'll go to the presentations.

Go ahead, please, Mr. Sibbeston.

3:30 p.m.

Glen Sibbeston Chief Pilot, Trinity Helicopters

Thank you, merci, mahsi cho.

It's an honour to be here today to address this committee. My name is Glen Sibbeston. I'm the chief pilot at Trinity Helicopters in Yellowknife, Northwest Territories.

Trinity Helicopters is an aboriginal-owned business, and I, myself, am a Métis from the Dehcho region. I have spent much of my life in northern Canada. My background includes a nine-year military career as a Sea King pilot, a couple of years as a mechanical engineer in the Northwest Territories, and about 10 years of civil helicopter flying in northern Canada. My most extensive experience is in the Dehcho region of the Northwest Territories, between the Mackenzie Valley and the Yukon border, but I've worked through much of northern Canada.

As a civil helicopter pilot, I have worked for mining companies, energy companies, government land inspectors, geologists, park wardens, and wildlife biologists. Basically anyone who needs intimate access to wilderness areas beyond the transportation infrastructure of Canada finds a need for helicopters.

As a Métis person from Fort Simpson, I was raised with an aboriginal viewpoint but educated in the western tradition. I have what I think is a balanced view of the tension between aboriginal, business, and government concerns. My perspective comes from seeing dozens of exploration projects, from having had hundreds of conversations with people who are trying to accomplish things in northern Canada, and from having had thousands of flight hours over the wilderness.

I have chosen to focus on three issues that I think are key if Canada is to develop its northern natural resources in the most beneficial way. First is transportation into the vast expanse of forest, mountain, and tundra areas of northern Canada; second is making peace and aligning interests with the aboriginal peoples who have occupied these lands; and third is the complex and unpredictable regulatory process that a resource developer must face before being able to turn a stone. These three issues, in my opinion, comprise the most significant barriers to development in the north.

The north is vast. Over one third of Canada's land mass is located north of the 60th parallel. Most of it lacks transportation infrastructure such as roads, rails, airports, and seaports. Even Canadians think of Yellowknife as being a long way north, but from Yellowknife, the north pole is more distant than the Mexican border. The average distance between communities in the Yukon and Northwest Territories is in the order of 200 kilometres. This figure is larger in Nunavut.

Many communities are not served by all-season roads. In fact, most roads end without penetrating very far north of 60 degrees. The most northerly route is the Dempster Highway, which ends at Inuvik, having passed mainly through the Yukon Territory. The Yukon has the best developed road network, the Northwest Territories less so, and Nunavut does not enjoy the benefit of a single highway.

It costs about 10 cents to move a tonne of goods one kilometre by road. This service is fairly reliable and schedules are flexible. At the end of the road, air transport often becomes the best alternative. What does a miner face when exploring past these roads? Costs soar.

If the destination is served by a large runway, that same tonne of goods can be moved by large aircraft for about $2 per kilometre. If a runway is not available, a smaller bush plane becomes necessary and the cost goes up to $10 per kilometre. The worst case is a very rugged destination where a helicopter is necessary. In this case, the cost rises to over $20 per kilometre to move that same tonne of goods. Many a geologist has quipped that rich deposits prefer spectacular scenery, which can be found only at the most remote and rugged locations.

In approximate terms, at locations within 100 kilometres of highways, transportation costs exceed $1,000 per tonne. If you're nearer than 100 kilometres to a highway, you can get your goods to site for less than $1,000 per tonne. Once you pass that line, the cost will tend to go above $1,000 per tonne. And by the time you're approximately 300 kilometres from the nearest road, you're looking at $5,000 per tonne to move your goods to site, and ever more so as you get further away from the road system.

Shipping is available to communities with sea access. Costs per tonne vary from $230 per tonne for Kivalliq communities to $665 per tonne for Kitikmeot communities, and the high Arctic is over $1,000 per tonne.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

Wladyslaw Lizon Conservative Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON

Mr. Chair, I have a question.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

You have a point of order.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

Wladyslaw Lizon Conservative Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON

Yes, a point of order.

There's a reference in the presentation to slides. Are we having slides?

3:35 p.m.

Chief Pilot, Trinity Helicopters

Glen Sibbeston

I had a technical problem and the slides didn't make it into the presentation. They didn't arrive in time to be translated. I think you will get the deck afterwards.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

Wladyslaw Lizon Conservative Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON

Okay. I thought we were missing something.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

No. They will be coming as they are translated.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

Wladyslaw Lizon Conservative Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON

Okay, thanks.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Thank you.

Go ahead, Mr. Sibbeston.

3:35 p.m.

Chief Pilot, Trinity Helicopters

Glen Sibbeston

Thank you.

Nevertheless, if you've managed to get your goods to one of these seaports, the cost of transport just outside of these communities remains in excess of $5,000 per tonne because staging logistics in air transport are difficult, uncertain, and expensive. Exacerbating the situation, the reliability and scheduling flexibility of the road system diminishes the farther afield one must go. Ice roads and sealift are available for only a few months a year. At the point where bush planes or helicopters are necessary, transportation is available only during daylight hours and when weather permits. These limitations impose serious restrictions, uncertainty, and additional costs on the mining company.

My thoughts on the situation are fairly straightforward. New roads would breathe life into the Canadian resource industries. Every 100 kilometres of new road would bring 20,000 square kilometres within the $1,000 per tonne area and push north the $5,000 per tonne line. The Manitoba-Kivalliq road is an example of such a project that is currently languishing and could be rejuvenated with decisive political support from the federal government. The Mackenzie Valley Highway is another.

I'll move on to my second point. The land claims process, whereby land is returned to the aboriginal peoples of northern Canada, is not complete—not yet. This is such a huge and complex topic. What I would like to do with my short few minutes is explore one idea, an incongruity that lies at the base of the misunderstanding between the first nations and Canada.

One fact that is not often observed in the context of land claims is that the aboriginal people of northern Canada did not practise agriculture; they were hunter-gatherers. This is important because the relationship between a hunter-gatherer and the land is profoundly different from the relationship a farmer has with his land. Both rely on land to earn a living, but the hunter moves over it from place to place collecting what the land offers. The farmer chooses a spot and then progressively improves the land, first by breaking the ground and eventually by creating fences, roads, and buildings. In order for the farmer to invest years of hard effort into his land there needed to be some assurance that he would be able to enjoy his investment, so property rights and legal systems evolved to meet this need.

The hunter has no need for such ideas since he makes little investment into lands, and due to very low population densities, interaction with neighbours is infrequent. In fact, the very idea of a single person owning land seems repugnant to the hunter, as it obviously belongs to all equally. Looking at it another way, the hunter owns a bit of land completely the moment he stands on it, and then it is returned to nature as he moves on.

In the industrial age, property rights and a dependable legal framework became increasingly important as capital investment and the means of production necessarily increased. The farmer adapted easily as the ideas and virtues required to farm transferred neatly to industrial production. The farmer became the industrialist. The hunter-gatherer became the trapper, an activity well suited to his skills and requiring little property. To this day the hunter-gatherer has no property; it's being held in trust.

I move from the abstract to the personal and specific. In the last decade the Mackenzie Valley gas pipeline was proposed, studied, debated, and rejected. I watched the Dehcho land claim negotiations from my then home in Fort Simpson. I watched in frustration as opportunity passed the whole region. The land claim in the Dehcho was not settled, and as a result no consensus could be reached between the first nations, the federal government, and Imperial Oil. The pipeline was not built. I moved away.

The Dehcho First Nation was trying to apply the land ownership concept of the hunter-gatherer at a time and place where the industrialist was looking to invest billions. Rather than offer good counsel, the federal government made a lowball offer that seems to have been designed to take advantage of a lack of awareness on the part of the Dehcho First Nation of the value of resources under the ground. No agreement was reached. The time was not right.

If Canada is going to make best advantage of its resources, we need to align our interests with those of the first nations. This means completing the land claims in such a way that aboriginal people prosper as their lands produce.

The federal government should take a more generous tack rather than the hard-nosed adversarial attitude that has predominated. The first nations have not been right about everything either. Consensus management strategies and the hunter's concept of land ownership are anachronistic. The industrialist concept of land ownership must prevail, since it is industrial activities that the land is destined for.

My third point centres on the regulatory process that resource developers face. Resource extraction and even exploration are subject to laws that essentially make these activities illegal. The process is then to apply for licences, that is, government permission to engage in illegal activities. These illegal activities include using water, cutting trees, storing fuel, and operating machinery off road.

In these licensing processes, all of the obligations rest with the proponent and none with administrators. Due process can be used by the boards as a tool to stall an application. Public servants can and do use their office to promote personal agendas, such as an extreme environmentalist viewpoint, or as a platform to exert aboriginal rights.

Requests from resource developers to have access to land and water can take years to be approved or declined. Often these are just simple requests for a tent camp and a few drill holes. Clear standards do not always exist, and regulatory compliance is a moving target. The process is expensive as well as time consuming for the proponent.

One way to promote investment in exploration and reduce strain on the broken licensing process would be to raise thresholds for which licences are required. A lone prospector is free to come and go on crown lands, camp where he or she wishes, and break rocks with hand tools. Above the threshold of 400 person-days, licensing an exploration camp becomes a significant obstacle.

I once provided helicopter services to a junior exploration company that was using a very small drill to explore magnetic anomalies that they had identified by airborne survey methods. This small drill was being used because it fell under a weight limit, half a tonne, above which permitting would be necessary. Unfortunately, the small drill was not adequate to collect the needed data and the project was abandoned. I last heard that the company was exploring in northern Alberta. If larger equipment had been allowed onto lands without following a full licensing process, perhaps this project would have attracted more significant investment.

I have two suggestions for improvements. First, I would propose higher thresholds within the regulations before licences are required. For instance, that 400 person-day camp limit could be raised to 2,000 person-days, still a very small camp. There is a 4,000-litre limit for fuel storage. This could be raised to 10,000 or 20,000 litres.

My second suggestion would be standardized licensing for routine activities with lower environmental risk. Exploration drilling comes to mind. These camps all work in much the same way; they have similar facilities, follow similar schedules, and use the same chemical products. Standardizing the licence and conditions of licence would make the system faster, more responsive, and leave the boards free to think about larger projects with more serious and complex consequences.

Once again I thank you for this opportunity to appear here today.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Thank you, Mr. Sibbeston.

We'll now to go to Mr. Gemmer from Gem Steel Edmonton Ltd. for a presentation up to 10 minutes. After that we'll get into questions and comments.

Go ahead, please.

3:45 p.m.

Bradley Gemmer President, Gem Steel Edmonton Ltd.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I'm Brad Gemmer. I started Gem Steel back in the early 1980s and actually have been in business since the 1970s. I know I don't look that old, but it's there anyway.

I started working in the Arctic in the early 1980s—about 1980-81—with Echo Bay's Lupin Mine, for which I did most of the plate steel work and all the big orange tanks that people use as...I don't know what you call that.

Anyway, they are there in Lupin, and since then, I've evolved to most of the major mines in western Canada, as well as all of the diamond mines, which have fuel storage that I supplied. Subsequent to that, we supplied Newmont up near Cambridge Bay, and as well we have just completed the first tankage up at the north end of Baffin Island.

I feel the best way to address the plight of the mining industry would be to go into a circumstance, which I have as kind of a sideline in conjunction with the business and the effort to have a placer mine as well as develop mining equipment to sell to placer miners both in Canada as well as internationally. There are companies in Vancouver; one is Goldlands. There are Knelson concentrators and Falcon Concentrators, all of which have been derived from placer miners trying to develop better equipment.

I started to be involved with the placer mine in the Yukon, in the southwest corner of the Yukon, about 12 years ago—initially with a partner and a couple of years ago I made a deal to take his position over. Subsequently I have been developing some pretty good machinery that will both enhance recovery and leave a cleaner footprint on the ground.

Everything was fine until I applied for a renewal of my licence. I applied in November of 2009 and I received the licence in 2010 in June. The licence was fine except it said that I could only go in there between the June 15 and July 15, which is the equivalent of telling your wife she can only go for groceries in one month of the year and she's going to have to pack and buy everything necessary....

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to discriminate against the women with that remark, but you would have to buy and plan every repair, everything you needed, and everything you might need in anticipation of only having a month of access. In addition to that, the access that was provided was in the flood time of the river, when the river that I have to cross is impassable.

The cause of this problem was an intervention by the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, which decided that after 12 years of going across the Tatshenshini River, without flaws, implications, or any detrimental effect on anything, they didn't want us crossing anymore.

We went—when I say “we”, that is myself and my advocate—to see the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, and we were promised last year and all through the winter, at least six times, that they would provide a letter of intervention to the water board that would allow expanded access across the river.

Gold was found on Dollis Creek, which is where the claims are, in 1926. Some of the biggest nuggets in the Yukon came out of that creek and it employed many people for many years. I had a crew of five or six people up there when I could work.

If we kept trying to get some assistance out of the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, things actually kept tightening up rather than opening up. I had built a large rubber-tired vehicle to safely cross the river in an area that was away from the land claims area of the Champagne fisheries and wouldn't be bothering anybody, but it was a much more severe place to cross than where everybody else crosses, which is at the point called Dalton Post. It would be about 15 miles or 20 kilometres north of the B.C. border.

Anyway, I built this larger rig to cross the river there, and as it turned out, the recommendation by the fisheries department was not only that I had to use that, and that was the only thing I could use to cross the river, but now everybody else was going to have to have a big rubber-tired rig too. Now, they have yet to come up with any kind of evidence of any detrimental impact on the environment, on the fish habitat, or the fish migration. There are only suppositions of what might happen, in spite of the fact that in order to count the fish, they put the fish into what they call a weir and the fish that escape—which is actually called the escapement—is what they use to count the fish. That probably doesn't hurt anything, but the passage of this vehicle takes three or four minutes, maybe five minutes if you're going slow enough, and it would be a pretty trivial amount out of a 1,400-minute day, and when you figure that out for a week or two, it's insignificant at the best of times.

The problem with all of this is that you have basically no way to argue with a person who's been planted in that kind of a position and wishes to pursue his own private agendas. There's no recourse. You have no way to deal with that. As I said, the circumstances just get progressively worse.

Now, as it is we're basically—and when I say “we”, I mean my employees and me—just hoping to find a way to get the Department of Fisheries to go back to where it was before, as this fellow who is in charge there now states that he plans to have the Yukon regulated within three years. That would mean that every mining company in the Yukon would have to address every stream that it passes in order to try to accomplish anything it wants to do. And that's not just the mining industry, but also the surveyors, the prospectors, and even the camps and everything—any effort to get in, other than maybe on the ice in a river in the wintertime.

They've suggested that I could use an ice bridge. It's almost as if they're hoping I will try to do something that foolish and have a catastrophe so that they can point their finger at me. With an ice bridge and a fast-flowing river like the Tatshenshini, what happens is the ice is frozen at maximum water flow. In order for an ice road or bridge to work, you have to have the buoyancy of the water underneath to support anything that goes over it. As soon as the water goes down and starts to freeze, you've got huge caverns, and if people attempted to go across and fell through, they'd be gone and you'd never see them again.

This is the kind of advice we're receiving, as you can see in some of these documents that you either have or will be getting.

I can't really say much more about my situation there, other than that it's impossible to work within dates outlined on a calendar if you lose an engine or you need parts or you need a.... We have a legislated requirement to even cycle the crew every 26 days, I believe, in the Yukon. It changes from one jurisdiction to the other.

We cycle in the north. I have the diamond mines, and we try to do it every three weeks, but we can get permission for extended times. Nevertheless, people have to get out when they're in isolated areas.

The dates we've been provided are totally unworkable, and I believe Fisheries knows that and has the intention of driving and setting a number of precedents by locking me out of the claims, one of which is a free miner's access to his ground. That blocked, up until very recently, a through access, but it's still considered part of the Yukon highway system. Some of the cattle drives and such that went up to support miners in the gold rush times came through that very road. It even has its own name: the Dalton Trail.

This particular Fisheries individual—and I'm not saying he's by himself or with a group, because I don't know—has decided to close that to only one person, and that's me. Anybody else can go across that river at any time they wish without restrictions.

If I have a little more time I can make some comments on the rest of the Arctic, if you like, or whatever you think, Mr. Chairman.