Natural Resources Committee on Feb. 9th, 2012

[Vivian Krause]

No.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Okay. You believe.

You've been asked repeatedly by Conservative members of Parliament to give your opinion. Are you an expert?

[Vivian Krause]

Sir, I was asked to come to this committee and provide answers to your questions. I'm doing my best.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

I understand. You're down as an individual; you're described as a witness who's coming here and appearing as an individual.

Are you an expert? Are you a professor of law?

[Vivian Krause]

I believe I've answered your question.

[David Anderson, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Point of order, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Yes, Mr. Anderson.

[David Anderson, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

This is asinine. Mr. McGuinty should know better than to try to bully witnesses. He should at least show some respect for her. She has come here with information today for the committee. He can at least have the decency to treat her in a civil manner.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Thank you, Mr. Anderson.

Mr. McGuinty, you asked your question. It was answered. You have to be reasonable in dealing with witnesses.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

You're right, Mr. Chair. I think that's why it's important. I'll change the line of questioning, because we have ascertained that Ms. Krause is not appearing today as an expert on any field related to this whole question of foundation structure or American tax law.

I think she's offering opinions. It's good to know that she's offering mere opinion, which is not expert opinion.

Monsieur Caron, you said earlier that NEB is only able--

[David Anderson, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Point of order, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Mr. Anderson.

[David Anderson, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

I think out of decency Mr. McGuinty should give Ms. Krause an opportunity to respond to what he had to say there. She's done work for five years on one subject. I'd say that makes her probably more of an expert than anyone else in this country, and we've heard that today. Give her an opportunity to respond.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Thank you, Mr. Anderson.

Okay, Mr. McGuinty, go ahead.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Time is of the essence. I have some important questions for the other witnesses.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

It's up to you.

Go ahead, please. Each member directs his questions within reason. You need to give a reasonable amount of time for a response.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Yes, I'd like to proceed if I could. Thank you.

Monsieur Caron, you said earlier that within the NEB you have to factor in existing policy, existing regulatory standards. I asked you, for example, if there were a national energy strategy or a Canadian energy policy of some kind, whether it would factor in, and you said you were only able to factor in what's effectively in place.

The government has a commitment to achieve 17% greenhouse gas reductions by 2020. Are you factoring that into your work at the NEB? This is a stated policy. They keep repeating that they have regulatory standards that are forthcoming. They say large final emitters are going to be regulated. They said that five years ago. Are you factoring that in? How do you factor that in?

[Gaétan Caron]

Indeed, discussions occur regularly at our hearings on the topic of environmental effects, including the impact of greenhouse gases, of projects that are proposed to us by companies and sometimes supported or opposed by others. We often discuss the impact of a project on greenhouse gases and the degree to which there is a direct connection between, say, the pipeline project and a given environmental outcome.

What we have found in decisions made by board panels in the past was that the connection was not direct. But the topic is debated in front of us, and panels of board members decide based on the merits of what they hear in front of them in the hearing, on the public transcript.

So this is in keeping with what we've heard in the past. Whether it has an impact on the decisions and the reasons for the decision of the panel is something left to them as they decide independently on the case.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Thank you, Mr. McGuinty. We are out of time.

Mr. Jean, you had a burning one-minute question...?

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Three minutes—

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

A one-minute question...?

We have to deal with some business, so we'll have to end the committee a little bit early. We have a motion; I think everyone has agreed to it, but we have to go through the process.

Mr. Jean, we'll hear a short question if you have an urgent one and a very short answer from whomever it's directed to.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

All of this information can be found on the Internet.

My question is going to be for Ms. Krause, but before I start that, I just want to say that there is $307 billion in tax revenue over the next 25 years out of the oil sands. Some 5% of the total tangible wealth that Canada has is in the oil sands, 25% to 30% of the TSX is in the oil sands, 7% of Canada's GDP is made out of the oil sands, and 44% of all oil sands employment is outside of Alberta.

Ms. Krause, you wanted to make a statement in relation to your research. I have to tell you that I have been very impressed with your knowledge of your file, and in particular your conclusions. If you want to answer Mr. McGuinty's comments, please do so.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

You have 30 seconds.

[Vivian Krause]

Thank you.

For many years, many journalists have looked at foreign investment in industry. They've looked at one side of the issue: they've looked at foreign money going into industry. I've simply put the shoe on the other foot, where it hasn't been put, by looking at the foreign money going into the environmental movement. Frankly, I would look at foreign money going into industries, but so many other people are already doing it. So I've just done what wasn't done.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Thank you very much.

Thank you, Mr. Jean.

To all the witnesses, thank you very much. I do appreciate your input. It has been very helpful indeed and this has been a very interesting morning.

If you could, would you sit at the table just for three minutes? Members often like to chat with you afterwards.

We can go quickly to a motion.

Monsieur Gravelle, you have a motion that I think you would like to put before the committee. I believe we can deal with it rapidly.