Natural Resources Committee on Oct. 30th, 2018

[Michel Dumoulin]

Absolutely. Our role is to provide data evidence to support good policy development.

[Geng Tan, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

Okay. I want to mention one example, or a future example actually. Later this week, the Government of Canada will launch an initiative called Efficiency Canada—probably you have heard that already—with the purpose of advocating to make Canada a global leader in energy efficiency. As a specific example, what kind of support can you provide to this important initiative in Canada? Please give one example.

[Michel Dumoulin]

I would have to go back to the basics, the same approach. Whatever program the government comes up with, we still have the same three-pronged approach. We work with our federal departments, and the provinces and territories as well, to help support developing the technology, so that it's going to be implemented and so that the technology is available. We'll work with companies to make sure they reach market.

Perhaps, Trevor, you would have an example to address this particular question.

[Trevor Nightingale, Principal Research Officer, Construction Research Centre, National Research Council of Canada]

Sure.

Maybe I could take a step back and say that NRC collaborates very closely with NRCan and other government departments on a number of important initiatives. In fact, the Canadian centre for housing technology, which is located in the NRC, is a shared facility among NRCan, NRC and CMHC. This is a platform for which many residential energy technologies are demonstrated and validated, and essentially it becomes a gateway to the marketplace.

We collaborate on federal programs like the program on energy R and D and on eco-EII—or eco-energy innovation initiative—programs, where the researchers come together and focus on R and D and developing the information necessary to develop the policies and inform technology development.

We also support the greening of the government through the centre for greening government, run out of Treasury Board. There is strong collaboration between many of the government departments that have a capacity in the area of energy efficiency to bring measures that are the most effective in terms of efficiency and most cost-effective to the Government of Canada buildings.

We have a lot to offer in this area. As my colleague Dr. Dumoulin said, we're ready and able to support these programs as they become available.

[Geng Tan, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

Okay.

What is the current status of Canada on the research on energy efficiency in the world? Are we a leader now? Do we have the leading-edge results? What's our current status? How do we collaborate with our peers in other countries?

[Michel Dumoulin]

Thank you for the excellent question.

It's a difficult question to answer. It varies. We clearly are at the leading edge. We are with the others, if you take into consideration our size, of course. You could measure that out of, for example, the number of publications or patents, and we are holding our own on the world scene. Absolutely in terms of publication and in terms of production of knowledge, we are right up there. If you look at the economic activity, yes, we have very solid representatives on the industrial scene, absolutely. We have great engineering firms.

As you know, the energy sector is extremely broad, very diversified. In the oil and gas sector, we clearly have a leading edge with leading companies, but it varies.

[Geng Tan, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

Mr. Nightingale, for example, you are from a construction research centre. I'm quite curious about making buildings more energy efficient. Of course, we have two ways. One way is to retrofit the current buildings, as you mentioned a lot in your presentation. Another way is to just simply demolish the current buildings and make new ones.

In general, which way is preferable, economically, based on your experience?

[Trevor Nightingale]

I'd like to be able to say there's a very simple answer, but unfortunately, there isn't because it really depends on the building itself and what its condition is. If there's been a ton of deferred maintenance, and maybe there are requirements for upgraded seismic resistance, there may be no choice but to demolish the building and start over again. I think, from an overall sustainability point of view, it really behooves us to look and see if the building has “good bones”, in other words a good structure that we can save, and we can rehabilitate that building.

The answer is that very many factors must be taken into consideration—economics, safety, health and the availability of technologies to rehabilitate that building.

[The Chair, Liberal, James Maloney]

Thanks very much. I'm going to have to cut you off there.

Mr. Schmale.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Thank you very much, Chair.

Thank you, gentlemen, for all the work you are doing. Thank you for coming to our committee and answering our questions. We do appreciate it.

My first question is on the use of technology in terms of energy efficiency, building codes and those types of things. Has there been any analysis done? I know you talked about energy savings on the one end. I think we have pretty high standards anyway, and if you up the bar, that cost always goes up. Has there been analysis to say whether you're better off, ahead or not ahead, based on potential savings, based on initial investment and those types of things?

[Michel Dumoulin]

That's an excellent question and not an easy one to answer, of course. It's not my first time here, and I know you're good at that.

Let me try to answer it in this way. I'm sure you know that we are custodians of the process for building codes, for the model codes. This is a fairly complex endeavour. Basically, the codes are developed on a consensus basis by the national Commission on Building and Fire Codes. Every time there's a task force, or these technical committees will actually look at changes to the codes, to really raise the bar, as you mentioned, to increase the quality of our building safety, oftentimes technical assessments and economic assessments also have to be done. This is where we come in. This is one of our key roles. We will actually take on lab work, research work or technical assessment work to see whether that will create market disruptions, what the impact on safety and the health of Canadians will be, and what impacts there will be on the market and whether the technology is there. Then we take it back to the working group, to the task force at the commission, so that they can actually make wise decisions.

I cannot answer in general. This is done on a case-by-case basis when changes to the code are being presented, when they are being tabled.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

If I were to renovate my house as it exists, I would be thinking, what gets me the biggest bang for my buck? It could be windows, insulation or a combination of both. What have your research and your consultations told you?

[Michel Dumoulin]

To go back to what Trevor was saying, there's no simple answer. I guess it depends on the situation. Is it a commercial building? Is it residential?

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Let's say it's a typical residential house.

[Michel Dumoulin]

I would have to go back to, basically, a discourse, whether it's for business or operation. You need to look at the business case and the expected outcomes. I'd add that what's key is looking at life cycle analysis or cost of operation, and not just at capital costs. Oftentimes in the past, and still now, we look only at the investment, the capital costs. You need to look at the whole operational cost, the life-cycle cost. This is where you will get the cost savings from energy savings. You need to look at the big picture, looking at the life of the operation of any asset.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

For sure.

Did you want to add something?

[Trevor Nightingale]

In general, we look at a basket of technologies. Obviously, one of the weakest links in a building's envelope is with the glazing and windows. Airtightness is often overlooked. If you have a leaky envelope, then make it airtight.

It comes back to this: What are we starting with? At this juncture, all we can say is that there's a basket of technologies and there are many different pathways to get where you want to go. It's kind of like going from Ottawa to Montreal. You can take a detour via Cornwall or some other location. If you know the right path, it's comparatively short. If you don't know the right path, you'll go in a large number of different directions and log a lot more miles than you really need.

I think the key issue, as Michel indicated, is to understand what you have and develop a sensible plan to get to it. There are audits and programs that will help you develop that plan. It scales from a home all the way up to a national level.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

I agree. I'm glad you said that, because it was kind of what I was thinking. For us in government circles, and in industry or whatnot, there's a bit more when it comes to resources. How do we move forward in terms of the typical Canadian who is trying to make that determination?

Where can they get the information if they don't have a lot of time or if they're just frustrated with the whole thing and they just want new windows or whatever? I know that there is an energy guide on most windows and new appliances and that kind of thing, but is there anything else coming down the line that could help with these decisions?

[Trevor Nightingale]

Many of those tools and resources are coming from our colleagues at NRCan, so we're feeding into that. Not to be overlooked are the provincial utilities, both electricity and gas. They have information and programs that are very valuable to the homeowner. They're typically regionally specific. There's a wide range of information.

The other thing would be to engage the CHBA and one of their home builders who's certified in high-efficiency homes. There are also consultants available. There is a wide range of options, all the way from doing it yourself to engaging a professional.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

There's the other thing, “engaging a professional”. As we heard from the Canadian Home Builders' Association, there is a shortage of skilled trades in Canada. I think it's everywhere. I don't think it's just a provincial thing. I think it's in every province, every territory.

With these new building codes and these new upgrades, there's always a cost. Of course, as a homeowner you weigh the benefits, the pros and cons. Any new policy or new regulation always adds to the price. With the skilled trades being in very short supply, is there any organization—yours, perhaps, based on your research—or is there anything that you know of engaging high schools or colleges to kind of point people to the skilled trades field, telling them, for example, “This is something you can make a good living at very quickly and we need it”?

[Michel Dumoulin]

There are different things we can do, and there are different actions we are taking. You know, of course, that teaching and education are not part of our mandate, but we do ensure that we work with colleges and universities to make sure that the students are exposed to that. We will hire them or we will co-supervise graduate students to make sure they are exposed to the latest applications of science and technology—

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Are they making that next choice to say—

[The Chair, Liberal, James Maloney]

I'm sorry, we're over time.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

But he wasn't done answering.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!