Natural Resources Committee on Dec. 4th, 2018

[Bernard Généreux, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, CPC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much for being here. My thanks also to the witness appearing by videoconference.

As you know, Quebec is in a somewhat unique position in Canada, in that it produces hydroelectricity. It therefore has a competitive advantage to some degree. Before I go any further, I must point out that, as well as being a federal member of Parliament, I own a company that has been a member of the CFIB for about 15 or 20 years. I don't know anymore; it has been a very long time.

We have 25 employees, in four offices. We own our main building and we are tenants in the other offices.

As tenants, you do not always have the means to change things, but, with our main building, we have electric heating, using hydroelectricity.

My company has taken a lot of initiatives. We are printers, so we are very familiar with recycled paper. Unfortunately, Quebec is currently experiencing a recycling crisis. I am going all over the place a little, but I will come back to my other questions soon.

We are currently experiencing a recycling crisis, not only with paper, but particularly with plastic, which is extremely harmful. China used to take certain plastics and certain materials. But now Quebec is really struggling with the plastic. Unlike British Columbia, for example, we do not recycle glass. There really is a recycling crisis and it has extremely significant economic repercussions on business.

Here is my first question. Do your organizations have anything to suggest in that area? Would you like the government to do more?

I have a second question as well. As an entrepreneur, and as a member of Parliament, of course, I meet a lot of entrepreneurs. I am often asked whether there is not some way to reduce paperwork. It is crazy how much of it there is. It makes no sense, particularly with the environment, where we are trying to protect anything and everything.

Unfortunately, we then end up in terrible environmental mazes, especially SMEs, which do not have the means to dedicate employees to it as big companies can. It becomes a huge administrative burden.

In Quebec, the government has been handing out money, particularly through the green fund. By the way, it must be said that the government has spent $1 billion, which has changed absolutely nothing in the Quebec's rate of greenhouse gas emissions.

The entrepreneurs I meet tell me that, instead of being penalized or being bad polluters, they would like help to become better citizens. You understand that fundamental difference.

What do you think about it?

[Monique Moreau]

I would first like to answer your question about recycling.

Our members have told us the same thing as you have. They want to recycle their materials, which they know very well. First, the public, who put their bins on the side of the road and take them back empty at the end of the day, do not understand that entrepreneurs have to pay for that service. Second, when the customer service fall short, they are the ones who basically end up with all the recycling.

Our suggestions really go to the municipal administrations, so that they can begin to get to work on those problems.

[Bernard Généreux]

Our municipality was the first on the Lower Saint Lawrence to use a third bin, a brown bin for biomethanization.

When I became a member of Parliament in 2010, our government announced the establishment of a biomethanization plant in Rivière-du-Loup. Eight years later, it has just started, or is just about to start, producing gas. It takes a long time. The processes are extremely lengthy, especially when we are dealing with such an innovation.

[Monique Moreau]

Surveys of our members generally indicate that they want to participate in those programs. They are interested because they want to reduce the basic costs of running their businesses. It is important for them too.

As for your second question, about paperwork, the opinions of our members are divided. They know that they have to fill out forms and apply for grants, for example. Reducing paperwork should therefore be seen as a way to encourage people to participate. If it is complicated and expensive, it will not be done.

Second, the most important problem—at least according to the surveys of our members—is that they are not aware that the programs exist.

We really encourage the government to provide publications, to make them known, and to use organizations like ours to pass on the message, so that our members know how to access those programs.

[Bernard Généreux]

At the outset, it was clear. People were deciding to do concrete things for their companies. But it is extremely frustrating to see that those concrete things basically end up in the garbage. It is really not pleasant to hear comments like that.

I don't remember your name, Madam, but from far away, I will say, can you answer those questions as well? Do you feel that as well? Do you understand those questions? How would you respond to that?

[Anna Murray]

Are you directing the question at me now?

[Bernard Généreux]

Yes. You're the one who is far away.

[The Chair, Liberal, James Maloney]

It's only Toronto.

[Anna Murray]

Waste is a very large issue. Thank you for raising that. I think there are significant issues, particularly with the measurement and the transparency around measurement.

Some of the haulers have an enormous amount of power. I think it has ended up being a result of their institutionalization in that sort of power role, but the hope is that in the future it starts to balance out a little more and that as a result there will be more transparency in terms of waste diversion and what those numbers accurately reflect.

Transparency is one issue. I think too much power on the haulers' side is another issue. Also, in terms of the waste piece, I think different companies have different calculations in terms of diversion rates. Different companies are looking at that in a different way, so I think some level of standardization would be helpful in order to give a more accurate insight into what these numbers actually look like.

There's another element that's specific to the building world. We find that even when we implement an incredible initiative at one building, the issue is that when you go right next door—to give the example of downtown Toronto—that building will have a different policy, different recycling or different waste regulations or policies. There's nothing that's standardized across an area, which leads to a lazy attempt, I guess, at recycling or waste diversion on the user end. It is so different that people lose motivation and interest, because in every new building they go into they have to look at something different—

[The Chair, Liberal, James Maloney]

I'm going to have to interrupt you there. We have to move on.

Mr. Cannings.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Thanks to all of you for being with us today.

I'm going to start with Ms. Murray and Bentall Kennedy.

Mr. Hehr mentioned Microsoft. As long-term members of this committee certainly know, I often talk about building with wood. Microsoft is rebuilding their campus with all-wood buildings that are being constructed with materials made in my riding in Penticton, British Columbia.

We have the technology now to build large buildings more or less completely out of wood. As a structural material, these buildings sequester carbon, so it's good for reaching our targets. I have a private member's bill regarding this in terms of government infrastructure.

First of all, does Bentall Kennedy build buildings or do you just manage them? If you do, do you see this trend in the world of constructing buildings out of wood? I think France has a target of 30% of their new buildings being built with wood in the near future. I'm wondering if you see that and if you were looking at that. You're tuned in with the world of big buildings. Could you comment on that trend?

[Anna Murray]

Yes, we are also involved in the development space in addition to building management, and yes, we are very focused on sustainable orientation in the development space. We now have a few buildings that are being constructed with wood. It's very dependent, obviously, on local regulations and what's allowed where, but just as we do in every other element of our business we work very closely with the development team to ensure the buildings are built to sustainability standards.

One area in particular that has very helpful guidance is LEED, the green building certification, or BOMA BEST. When we go for a LEED platinum or whatever level of LEED-certified building, the guidance within it in order to achieve that level of certification guarantees industry standards for sustainable development.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

When you are in the planning process for building a building, I assume you do consider modern construction methods that would lead to a LEED-certified building and so on and more energy savings. Are there any incentives out there that you can take advantage of to do that, or do you think this government could provide some incentives for the construction of buildings? We hear a lot about retrofits, but in the actual construction is that something you encounter?

[Anna Murray]

Yes, and I appreciate your raising that. I would say yes, absolutely, if there is opportunity or room for providing developers with incentives to develop certified buildings, that would be very well received in the industry.

One of the main issues is that certifications are becoming increasingly more expensive, so some investors and some funders are having a hard time justifying the spend to get the green certified building.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

I'm going to move to CFIB. You mentioned the green lease. Mr. Hehr mentioned that as well.

I wonder if you could expand on that and say how it works. Is there a trend towards that? How can we help that along if it has a good effect?

[Emilie Hayes]

I don't think it's a trend quite yet. It's something that we suggested in our first environment report back in 2007 and that we brought up again in our most recent one, in 2016. It's something that I don't think has caught on yet, just because I don't think there's a lot of information available out there for it.

One of our recommendations is really to provide education to business owners and landlords, because business owners may have more incentives to request such a lease from their landlord if they even know it exists.

As far as I know, it hasn't really been something that has caught on fully yet.

[Monique Moreau]

If I can supplement what my colleague has mentioned, our suggestion, though we probably would love to take credit for it, came from the Real Property Association of Canada. They suggested that in 2008. It has been a decade. We could have at this point been talking about this more commonly, but there still seems to be a lack of information. I think it requires investment on the part of the landlord.

What can we do then to facilitate that as we do for the business owners through an offset? What can we do to encourage it and design it in a way that's simple and easy to access? Those would be some of the guidelines we would suggest around that.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

You mentioned that some businesses find the kind of retrofit rebate system too difficult to negotiate or it takes too long to get the rebate back. For the return on investment, the payback period might be a little too long. Is there a way you could suggest? You said you wanted something simpler. Obviously, the simplest thing would be for the government just to give people money if they were renovating their building. Obviously, some limits have to be put on that.

As taxpayers, we have to be assured that money is being spent on real retrofits that will have a benefit. Is there some way that you have in mind that would do that?

[Monique Moreau]

Certainly. It sounds like a free-for-all, but that's what we're doing for consumers with the carbon backstop. We're just giving them the money, even though they may not make any changes in their day-to-day life that we're aware of. That is one option.

Maybe there are a number of streams whereby if you want to make an adjustment that's quick and relatively inexpensive you can get money much more quickly, and if you do want to undertake a larger, more substantial retrofit that requires a more significant investment, then that would require a bit of an application or something. We're trying to be flexible with that.

Things like green renovation tax credits have gone a long way, and our business owners and members have been supportive of those. In fact, in Quebec they had something called the RénoVert residential tax credit for individual homeowners, so maybe we could have something similar to that. There would be no application process and maybe you would send in your receipts at the end of the year, and CRA would say, yes, in fact you did do this list of approved renovations and so you can deduct those from your taxes. Those are the kinds of initiatives that we're in favour of versus those with a multi-step lengthy process.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Thank you. That's it.

[The Chair, Liberal, James Maloney]

Next is Mr. Serré.

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My thanks to our witnesses.

Ms. Murray, we heard from officials from Energy Efficiency Canada. They told us about energy costs for homes and businesses and they talked about saving $1.4 billion annually.

They also mentioned that every dollar invested in green energy produces a gross return of $7 in growth.

One of their recommendations for investing in buildings was to work more closely with the Canada Infrastructure Bank and the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation, the CMHC.

Are you working with the Canada Infrastructure Bank? Does it have any connection with the investments you are making?

[Anna Murray]

No, we haven't been doing direct work with them.

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

Okay.

When you talk about investments in Canada, is there a specific amount?

You talked about the United Nations and about Canada's reputation. Can you be specific as to the amount of foreign money that has been invested in Canada?

You mentioned the green building certification. Do you know how much money from international sources has been invested in Canada?

We are looking for a energy model that is a little more efficient.

[Anna Murray]

To clarify, are you wondering what the dollar amount of our investors is specific to Canada?