Evidence of meeting #130 for Natural Resources in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was mack.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Liza Mack  Executive Director, Aleut International Association
Bill Erasmus  International Chair, Arctic Athabaskan Council
Kent Hehr  Calgary Centre, Lib.
David de Burgh Graham  Laurentides—Labelle, Lib.
Clerk of the Committee  Ms. Jubilee Jackson

4:40 p.m.

International Chair, Arctic Athabaskan Council

Chief Bill Erasmus

Yes. Thank you.

The questions are very interesting. I'm going to try to deal with both of those questions in the answer.

I think when you approach the first nations, you have to approach them as a collective. Don't go to them as individual communities or bands, because they're part of a greater collective. I'll give you an example.

As recently as a couple of weeks ago, there was an announcement on Vancouver Island that they have put the proposed LNG facility on hold. The communities in that area gave a huge sigh of relief because what happened was the company came in and dealt with only one community, when there are many, many, many communities. They came in and chose one community to get onside, and then their job was to get everyone else onside. There was this huge discussion going on and people were beginning to dig their heels in and say, “Just a minute. We want to understand all of this and we have a say.” Now that it's on hold, everyone's going, “Thank God.” They can breathe again.

Say this proposal comes back. What they need to do is to go to that whole tribal council, which is the 15 communities, and say, “This is what we're looking at”, and ask them how to go about it, and they'd advise them. Yes, we have—and you'll find this right across the country—corporations in place. They've been well established over the years, but they will not proceed unless the leadership gives them the go-ahead, the political people tell the economic people to engage. Those practices are already in place.

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

Thank you, Mr. Tan.

Mr. Schmale, are you going to pick up where you left off?

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Jamie Schmale Conservative Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON

I think so.

Ms. Block?

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly Block Conservative Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK

No.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Jamie Schmale Conservative Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON

No? Okay. I guess I am.

Thank you, Chair.

Dr. Mack, I know it's been a while. I can give you my question again if you need me to, but I wouldn't mind continuing where we left off.

4:45 p.m.

Executive Director, Aleut International Association

Dr. Liza Mack

I think, from what I just mentioned in the last question, it really kind of depends. I would agree with what Chief Erasmus has said as far as approaching people as a collective goes, and I think maybe if you just go in without an assumption about what has to happen that people will probably.... From the way the question has been presented, I feel as though I should only be able to tell you that, yes, this is how to get people to do something, but I think that just going in and also understanding that might not happen is also a possibility. When you come in with an assumption about what should happen in a community, it turns people off from listening to you and wanting to hear your side.

I would just say that I think that going in with a collective approach is a good way to go. Also, it's about understanding those cultural values, and how sometimes it's not about benefiting so many other people with money, I guess.

I don't know what else to talk about. It's really just working with the communities and, I would suggest, talking to people altogether and finding out why they're not supporting it to get to how they might.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Jamie Schmale Conservative Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON

I'll ask you one more question and then I'll leave you alone.

What I'm trying to get at is who gets the veto. If 31 communities say that yes, they're good to go and fewer than five that are not affected by a project say, “Not really”, who gets the final say? When do we say, “Yes, we'll move forward”? Would you say the vast minority gets all the power here? Obviously, we want consensus, and we want meaningful consultation. We should all sit down and have the best conversation we can, gather all the information, and present it. But if the ones that are affected directly by, say, a pipeline say yes—there are 31 that say yes, it's a go, and fewer than five say no—what happens? Who gets the veto? Who gets to say no? Do we say no on the fewer than five or do we say yes, that 31 say go?

4:45 p.m.

Executive Director, Aleut International Association

Dr. Liza Mack

That's not really something I'm at liberty to answer, and I think it is completely contingent upon—

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Jamie Schmale Conservative Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON

I'm just making this up because if we're doing best practices, we want this project to potentially go forward, but who gets to shut it down if we do?

4:45 p.m.

Executive Director, Aleut International Association

Dr. Liza Mack

Who is the “we”? This is a conundrum that could go round and round. Without knowing the people involved, that's not something I'm at liberty to answer. It's outside the scope of my expertise.

It's never the same. The veto is never the same. There's not a blanket answer. I get what you're looking for, but that's not something that I can answer in a way that is culturally appropriate. There's no answer. It's completely dependent on each issue.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Jamie Schmale Conservative Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON

Okay.

I'm sorry. I have one small question, and then I'll leave you alone.

If you were one of the five in that scenario, how would you like that to move forward?

4:45 p.m.

Executive Director, Aleut International Association

Dr. Liza Mack

I would like to have the people who are supporting it come to me and talk to me about why they support it. I would also like them to ask me why I don't support it and what I would be interested in, in terms of the ways I would like to move forward.

4:45 p.m.

International Chair, Arctic Athabaskan Council

Chief Bill Erasmus

I was trying to answer it by telling you that the approach is what's important. Deal with the whole collective. You sit all of them down. They all hear the same things. Then they can talk amongst themselves, and they'll develop a way to say yes or no—

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

Jamie Schmale Conservative Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON

Instead of one by one, separately.

4:50 p.m.

International Chair, Arctic Athabaskan Council

Chief Bill Erasmus

—instead of one by one. You're wasting time and energy, and you may be saying two different things to two different peoples.

If I had a proposal, I'd want all of you to hear it, and I would deal with all of you within this room. You're from your various constituencies, which are all different. It's very similar to us.

If you were a chief in your riding, you would have to deal with all those people you represent. In many ways it's the same. If you dealt with all of them and said, “This is what we would like to deal with, and we want to develop a dialogue with you,” then you can set that up within a framework that includes time, money and so on.

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

Thank you very much.

I gave you a little extra time because I interrupted.

Mr. de Burgh Graham.

4:50 p.m.

Laurentides—Labelle, Lib.

David de Burgh Graham

Ms. Mack, if I understood correctly, in your opening remarks you said that you completed your Ph.D., so I should be calling you Dr. Mack. I'll go with that. Thank you.

You mentioned the function of the tribal affairs committee in one of your answers earlier on. I'd like to learn a little more about it, its level of power, its authority, its history and where it came from. Could you give us a bit of a background on it, and tell us what it is and what it can do?

4:50 p.m.

Executive Director, Aleut International Association

Dr. Liza Mack

It was established, I think, two days ago, so I need to do my research as well.

I know that Bryce Edgmon is the chairperson of that committee, which has just been established at the Alaska State Legislature. All that I know is that it has just been established and it will be working with the State of Alaska.

I apologize for mentioning something that I am not as familiar with as I could be. It's a newly established entity, and I think it's very exciting for that to be happening at the state legislature.

4:50 p.m.

Laurentides—Labelle, Lib.

David de Burgh Graham

Does it replace anything in terms of structure?

4:50 p.m.

Executive Director, Aleut International Association

Dr. Liza Mack

No, it's new.

4:50 p.m.

Laurentides—Labelle, Lib.

David de Burgh Graham

The Aleut territory goes, as far as you show on the map behind you, to the International Date Line. How does it work with Russia on the other side of that line? I imagine the Aleut people continue through there.

4:50 p.m.

Executive Director, Aleut International Association

Dr. Liza Mack

Yes, we do. They speak the Medny Island dialect of Unangam Tunuu. It is actually 17 hours ahead of us, so at 5 p.m. today I have a meeting with my board, which is actually at 1 p.m. tomorrow afternoon for them.

I have four board members in Alaska, and four board members in Russia. It's just a little bit of strategic planning, being able to have discussions with them and making sure we're lining up translators and getting documents back and forth to them in a language they understand.

4:50 p.m.

Laurentides—Labelle, Lib.

David de Burgh Graham

They're 17 hours ahead of you but they're right beside you.

4:50 p.m.

Executive Director, Aleut International Association

4:50 p.m.

Laurentides—Labelle, Lib.

David de Burgh Graham

Okay. That's interesting too.

I was wondering more about their relationship with Russia. Since we're looking at international best practices, do you know what's actually happening over there?