Natural Resources Committee on April 2nd, 2019

[Dawn Madahbee Leach]

First of all, with regard to the barriers, it's pretty clear that indigenous people in Canada are the most marginalized. Some of the barriers are around things like access to capital. With the lower incomes, we struggle with getting together equity to start a business. The education levels are also barriers. We have growing education rates and more and more post-secondary education where people are graduating from post-secondary education, but it's still not at the level that it should be and it doesn't match the Canadian standard.

As a matter of fact, in June our board will be launching our second national aboriginal economic progress report. You could find the first benchmark report and our second progress report on our website.

Those will show you that we have a lot of disadvantages when it comes to getting into business and seeking the employment that we need. I always try to remind people to put it in perspective. For example, if we're looking at employment levels in Atlantic Canada, all we need is about 4,900 jobs for indigenous people in all of Atlantic Canada to be at the same employment levels of all other people in Atlantic Canada. That might sound like a lot, but if you break it down by institution, education, services or universities, colleges, health services, businesses, small businesses, large corporations, government agencies, if all of these agencies took a few numbers, they could easily achieve that.

In Ontario, with the largest population, all we need is about 19,000 jobs for aboriginal people in Ontario to be at the same employment levels. That would mean more people working, fewer people on social services. That means more people paying into the services that are provided and all the economic leakage that goes to surrounding regions. This is something that's really possible, and it could happen right away if there was a concerted effort. That's what we talk about, economic empowerment. If people knew that and people took ownership of creating some of those jobs, I think that would help. We're not just relying on government, but like I said, institutional jobs and industry and all that to step up.

I spoke about the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples. I am so excited about the possibility of Canada being the first one to incorporate that declaration into the law of this land. It's so critical for us to be leaders in the world to be able to do that. There are so many basic elements to that declaration that could really make a difference in the lives of indigenous people. I think it's so important that we can do things like that.

Through that OECD study I spoke about earlier, I've been learning so much from other indigenous people from around the world. There are so many great things going on. We can look at how the Maori people are involved in New Zealand leadership and government and how the Sami people in Sweden have their own Sami parliament. Everything works well. People are afraid of some of these changes, but there's so much that we could share with each other from other countries, which is why I feel privileged today to be sharing this panel with a friend from Australia. I think there's so much that we can share with each other and learn from each other.

To me, having this bill passed in the Senate would make Canada a real leader in indigenous issues around the world.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

When you're talking about creating those opportunities for indigenous communities, especially in Northern Ontario, a lot of the barriers seem to be.... If you're going to set up a mine—for example, the Ring of Fire—there's obtaining access and getting the ability to start that mine, and we know it is a process. But there's also the fact that once the mine is up and running, then the jobs and opportunities come along to it.

Would you say that also we need a process? We talked about the consultation and ensuring that it gets done in a manner that's respectful and what have you, but one of the barriers I would say to this development would also be government itself.

[Dawn Madahbee Leach]

I think that there are a lot of barriers. One of the barriers is having indigenous people develop the capacity to be able to make informed decisions in that development, because, as you know, there have been different initiatives and efforts.

Some were top-down, but now I'm really proud of this new committee approach that has also looked at social issues in the Ring of Fire. At first, they were just focused on the economic issues and the formal consultation on the mining itself, not looking at the overall social issues that were being experienced by the people there.

Now this committee is working on addressing those social issues, including housing, access to clean water and other basic needs of the community. It's hard for them to start negotiating a mining project when they don't have clean drinking water in their community.

[The Chair, Liberal, James Maloney]

I'm going to have to stop you there because we're already over time.

Mr. Cannings.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Thank you both for being here today. It's been very interesting.

I'm going to start with Dr. Hemming in Australia. Some of the other witnesses we've heard today have mentioned concepts such as giving nature and rivers rights that normally people would have. We have the Pachamama, or mother nature, concept in Bolivia; the Whanganui River in New Zealand; and I think there are some examples in the rivers of Victoria.

I'm just wondering if you would comment on that and as to whether that's a useful concept, whether it is practical and whether it's something that maybe Canada should consider, maybe not in exactly those terms, but in terms of guaranteeing the rights to a clean environment.

[Dr. Steve Hemming]

I've had a bit of a look at that issue, obviously, working on a river system. I think there's a lot of value in providing some rights to parts of the lands and waters that are so important. The key issue, I think, from working with Ngarrindjeri people from indigenous perspectives in Australia—now and then in Victoria there are similar kinds of rights being assigned to a river in that space—is to ensure that the relationship of the indigenous peoples isn't affected by that particular assignation of identity.

For Ngarrindjeri people, the river, the lands and waters are a living body that they are part of, so the idea of providing rights that might separate indigenous people from that living body is something that needs to be guarded against, but that depends on the way of living, the philosophies of the indigenous nations in a particular context and how they identify with their lands and waters. From the Ngarrindjeri perspective, there have been some discussions around those issues with the opposition federal government in Australia, with Ngarrindjeri leadership.

There's certainly an interest in providing some support to providing rights to rivers, but not as separate to the indigenous nations themselves. For Ngarrindjeri, there's an agreement called the “speaking as country”, where the state of South Australia recognizes that Ngarrindjeri people speak as the lands and waters and that it's a particular set of responsibilities and a relationship that is separate from the non-indigenous relationship to country. It needs to be respected, recognized, understood and not interfered with through particular laws.

I think it's a complicated issue, but there are certainly benefits in that space. I know in New Zealand there's a recognition of indigenous peoples' relationships that's very complex in their assignation of rights to rivers.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Just to follow up, it's interesting that we're talking about water. One of the previous witnesses just reminded us that, although we value oil and gas, water is perhaps more valuable than that. You mentioned the Murray-Darling system and the troubles it's having.

I'm just wondering how the aboriginal people in South Australia or Victoria or wherever assert their rights over parts of a river when you have a linear system like that. You are growing cotton, but the headwaters and all that water is being used up, and you have nothing left by the time it gets to the sea. How are those rights dealt with in Australia?

[Dr. Steve Hemming]

At the moment, there are two peak indigenous collections of nations in the Murray-Darling Basin: the northern basin group and the Murray Lower Darling indigenous nations. They're the nations along the river, and they're advocating for improved policies, in relation to indigenous rights to the rivers, at the federal level. They're supported by the Murray Basin Authority. There are a couple of nations along the whole of the system that have won native title rights fairly recently. The Ngarrindjeri have native title rights that were confirmed only just recently.

Native title is only a very partial and weak right, in a lot of ways, in Australia. There's also a nation in New South Wales that's won rights on the river. It's very early days in relation to that negotiation, but there's certainly an opportunity for Ngarrindjeri, as a nation on the river with rights to water, and also cultural heritage rights to water, to start to negotiate, in relation to flows that come down the river.

What happens upriver affects downriver, most certainly, but that hasn't been taken into account in policy yet in Australia. It's early days in that conversation, from an indigenous perspective. The Ngarrindjeri “speaking as country” agreement that I named is an agreement in which the Ngarrindjeri have agreed to work with the state of South Australia to secure water. In a sense, it's a collaboration between the indigenous nations' understandings of the river, and South Australians' need for water coming down the river, to negotiate with upstream states.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Thank you.

Dawn, you have one minute. I was going to ask you a question, but go right ahead.

[Dawn Madahbee Leach]

I was just going to mention how the Baniyala people in the East Arnhem region won title to land and sea. They're using the title to sea, and working on a plan for commercial fisheries and aquaculture. I think that's how they're implementing it, and also making sure that it's done in a sustainable way.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

I'm glad you mentioned the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples, and Romeo Saganash's bill that's in the Senate right now. I'm just wondering how you see the Government of Canada and its legislation in this Parliament. Has there been any improvement in implementing those concepts in that legislation?

[Dawn Madahbee Leach]

Not yet, but I'm hoping that's the plan. I don't know if there's still a committee working on looking at what legislation would need to change to respect the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples. I hope that work is ongoing. Of course, I think this bill needs to pass first, and then everything else will flow from there.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, James Maloney]

Mr. Whalen.

[Nick Whalen, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Dr. Hemming, can you help us contextualize the legal status of the Ngarrindjeri people in Australia, just so we can understand, in a Canadian context, what some differences might be? How does someone become a member? Do they have any special legal rights? I know you've talked about some, in terms of connection with land, and as protectors of the land and rivers, property rights and whatnot.

[Dr. Steve Hemming]

That's a complex question. Ngarrindjeri are a community of people who identify as Ngarrindjeri, and share similar laws, histories, backgrounds, language and particular connections to the country. In a way, Ngarrindjeri is a bit like a federation. It's a collection of what used to be groups that share similar kinds of histories, traditions and values.

In the Australian context, up until the first Kungun Ngarrindjeri Yunnan agreement in 2000-01, Ngarrindjeri were not formally recognized by the state or by the overall nation. Native title had come in 1992 as a possibility, so first nations or communities, or what are sometimes called tribes, could apply for recognition under Australian legislation, but their native title had survived colonization and the impacts of other titles. When someone wins a native title, that's really just a recognition that you've survived colonization, and you still have a society intact, and some of your rights and interest to country on some titles in your country.

For Ngarrindjeri, the effect of native title is really only on some parcels of land where native title hasn't been extinguished, and on the waters, riverbed and some other areas, but that's very early stages in working out what that really means.

There's also heritage legislation, which recognizes that aboriginal people have special interests in pieces of country, or water, relating to their cultural heritage. That also draws in issues, but it's very different from the Canadian situation and the U.S., in terms of rights. In other parts of Australia, there is land rights legislation where people are able to apply for land rights—

[Nick Whalen, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

Sure.

In terms of governance, are there multiple councils that help reflect the views of the group? How do they do self-governance?

[Dr. Steve Hemming]

In 2007, the Ngarrindjeri, established a formal peak body called the Ngarrindjeri Regional Authority, which was a reflection of the traditional governance of Ngarrindjeri.

Ngarrindjeri have always had a system of peak governance. Different groups within the community have leaders who speak authoritatively. Those elders and leaders come together to make decisions in relation to cultural issues.

The decision-making that had been occurring since colonization was basically very limited in relation to interaction with government, right up until the 1960s. There was a referendum, which led to more rights for indigenous peoples. So really, it's only very recent.

[Nick Whalen, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

I am trying to lead a thread to get Ms. Leach back in.

In terms of economic development, do the the Ngarrindjeri own businesses and corporations? Do those corporations pay tax like regular Australian corporations do, or do they have a separate tax regime?

[Dr. Steve Hemming]

It's the same tax regime.

When they set up the peak body in 2007, there were two priorities: looking after lands, waters and people; and economic development. There has been a real push around economic development.

There are several key Ngarrindjeri businesses and smaller businesses on Ngarrindjeri country. Those businesses have been expanding since the mid-2000s. There's a big stake in the cockle industry, which is a fishing industry in the region. There's a wildflowers business that's taking off, which actually supplies to supermarkets and internationally. There's a focus on the possibilities around water. There are revegetation programs. It's a lively business.

[Nick Whalen, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you very much. This is great.

I want to shift a little bit now.

Maybe, Ms. Leach, you could answer this first question.

In the previous panel, we heard from Chief Laboucan-Avirom that capital and ownership of resources, and companies that can develop the resources, are important for the economic development of first nations.

How are you recommending...or maybe, as you've looked around the world and through the OECD, how are indigenous groups accessing the capital they need to participate in the ownership structures for the development of their own resources?

[Dawn Madahbee Leach]

I have to tell you that through the OECD studies, it was found that Canada has a pretty good system of aboriginal-owned financial institutions. We have a network of about 58 aboriginal financial institutions across Canada that service the whole country. We also have two indigenous-owned banks in Canada. Other countries are pretty envious of the fact that we do have those entities. That does help, along with the fact that there are, I believe, more than 56,000 indigenous businesses in Canada.

I think having those models of finance available, which are indigenous-owned financial institutions—

[Nick Whalen, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

Ms. Leach, excuse me for my ignorance on this. Is there any special tax status for those indigenous-owned banks or do they operate the same as chartered banks in Canada?

[Dawn Madahbee Leach]

They operate the same as chartered banks.

[Nick Whalen, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

Wonderful.

I have a final question for both of you: When it comes to the other aspect of resource development, environmental management of the resource, what are some of the best practices you've seen in your research on co-management or joint management of resources?

After Ms. Leach has answered, maybe you, Dr. Hemming, can let us know to what extent the Ngarrindjeri jointly manage any of the fishing resources you've spoken about.

Ms. Leach.