Natural Resources Committee on April 11th, 2016

[TJ Harvey, Liberal, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

First of all, thank you, Minister, for attending today.

In your opening remarks, you indicated that budget 2016 proposed funding for clean technology projects. I'd like to cite a specific paragraph on page 7. Budget 2016 provides “more than $1 billion over four years [beginning 2017-18] to support future clean technology investments, including in the forestry, fisheries, mining, energy and agriculture sectors.”

Can you elaborate on how these investments and these specific pillars will spur innovation in each of those given sectors?

[Jim Carr, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

This will be a cross-government initiative. We'll be working very closely with Minister Bains and Minister McKenna across government to ensure the innovation investment is directed to where we think it can do the most good. If you look at the mandate letters that were sent to those ministers by the Prime Minister, you will see there is a very important cross-government commitment to innovation, in general, and in particular to clean green growth. We will be working with the private sector. We will actually be asking for proposals from the private sector to work with us.

We don't assume government has all the right answers on how these investments should be made. We do assume those investments will be more impactful if we work in partnership with those people who are devising some of the innovation, and who are implementing some of the innovation. You will find, over the next number of months and years, this government reaching out to the innovators, to the entrepreneurs, so we can work together in both the public and private sectors to make a difference.

By the way, on that very point, 20 prime ministers and presidents from around the world signed a mission innovation in Paris—I think November 30 was the date—that commits those 20 governments to doubling their investment in clean technologies, but there's also a private sector component. International billionaires, such as Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerberg, have also committed themselves to put together a group of private investors who will join the public sector, globally, to ensure we can lever up these investments.

The same thing is implicit in the commitments we've made in this budget in the ways in which we will reach out across the sectors to entrepreneurs and innovators to ensure we're getting maximum leverage for the money we spend through the taxpayer.

[TJ Harvey, Liberal, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

Next, in your opening remarks, you referenced your criss-crossing of the country in speaking with industry stakeholders, indigenous leaders, environmental groups, community leaders, and, of course, provincial leaders.

My question is specifically around this year's budget. What do these stakeholders in these given backgrounds have to say about your plans for natural resource development and specifically the innovation in clean tech that you've presented?

[Jim Carr, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

The response has been very positive, for the most part. People understand that we ran on a campaign platform of investments in Canadian people and in the Canadian economy and that we've delivered on those investments. You will always have disagreement among people who think that more should have gone here and less should have gone over there but, generally speaking, the response I have received in our office and in my travels across the country is that people think we're on the right track.

We also don't assume that we have all the right answers or all the best ideas. That's why we listen to ways in which we can improve the investments we've announced and the investments we will make. I think a hallmark of this government is not only its interest in reaching out to those who have good ideas—and in some cases better ideas—but to even be aggressive about it. That's the way we were in the pre-budget consultation. That's the way we'll be as we invite ideas from the private sector, from other governments, and from Canadians to take this template of budget 2016 and make it better and stronger.

[The Chair, Liberal, James Maloney]

Thanks.

Ms. Bergen, we'll go over to you.

[Candice Bergen, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

Thank you very much, Minister, for being here.

I'm going to change topics a bit. There's been a lot of talk, a lot of investment, and a lot of attention from this government on so-called clean energy and green energy, and we all support that, but the evidence and the experts tell us that fossil fuel consumption will be increasing over the foreseeable future, and that probably over the next 40 years it will be increasing.

I don't want to assume anything. I want to ask if you believe that if the world is going to be using fossil fuels, I assume you would agree with me that it should be the most responsibly extracted and transported.... You're nodding your head, so I'm assuming you agree with that.

[Jim Carr, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

I do.

[Candice Bergen, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

Would you agree that Canadian oil is extracted, comparatively speaking, in the cleanest and most responsible way? Would you be able to say that in all honesty in your heart of hearts?

[Jim Carr, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Well, I wouldn't rely on my heart or my opinion. I would rely on the investments of the COSIA group, who are experts in the sector and in the industry, and who are spending hundreds of millions of dollars to improve their processes. If you were to ask them the question you just asked me, their answer almost certainly would be that “we can do better, and we are doing better”.

Your question was, are we extracting fossil fuels in the most responsible way possible? I would say that there are others in the sector who are saying that there are more responsible ways and there are better ways and that's why we're investing in those technologies. They seek, as much as anybody else, to make sure that the way in which we extract our natural resources is as sensibly done as possible.

[Candice Bergen, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

In your role as Minister of Natural Resources, one of your jobs is to talk about natural resources around the world and to talk specifically about our oil and energy sector. When you're abroad, are you able to tell potential customers that Canadian oil is responsibly extracted? You might know that there's quite a campaign going on right now in Alberta. “Oil Respect” is one of the campaigns. There are a number of campaigns that want to dispel the myths and the rap that Alberta oil has gotten from around the world. We just saw it in Edmonton, of all places, this past weekend, when Alberta oil was getting a bad rap from certain people and certain ways of thinking.

For you, as the Minister of Natural Resources, based on the evidence and on our human rights record in Canada and our labour laws, and in comparing us to other oil producers in the world, are you able to promote Canadian oil abroad? Do you, as the Minister of Natural Resources, have confidence in the way our oil is extracted and transported?

[Jim Carr, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

I've had the pleasure over the last number of weeks to give keynote speeches at the CERAWeek conference in Houston, and at the Bloomberg conference in New York City just last week. At the same time I was meeting with investment bankers, who were looking at Canada for what they believed to be its stable politics, its growing economy, and its reliability as a partner. They are expressing their keen interest in investing in Manitoba, in Canada. I have no problem talking to the international community about ways in which Canadians believe that we can always improve processes. I can give examples. I understand your question.

[Candice Bergen, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

It would appear, I don't think it's just me, that the money is showing investors are looking for not only a stable political environment but they're looking for a political environment that believes in its own natural resources.

I wanted to switch topics again and go back to your announcement, which was news to me. Just to clarify, after energy east submits its application to the National Energy Board at that point you will be appointing three new members to the NEB who will then be part of the NEB only during the energy east application process. Is that accurate, or can you clarify that?

[Jim Carr, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

They're temporary members of the National Energy Board whose job will be assigned to them by the chair of the National Energy Board. That is not the job of the Government of Canada, and the chair of the National Energy Board will determine the best way to deploy this increased capacity of the board to do its job. That will happen sometime after the application has been lodged. It won't be a long time after that, and it will enable the National Energy Board to do a better job than it could do if it didn't have these additional temporary members.

[Candice Bergen, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

And it will only be for energy east?

[The Chair, Liberal, James Maloney]

Thank you, we're out of time.

Mr. McLeod, over to you for five minutes.

[Michael McLeod, Liberal, Northwest Territories, NT]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to point out, first of all, that I'm really happy to see the amount of consultation that this government is doing with people from across Canada. I'm really happy to see that your department is engaging in round table discussions on the different areas of Canada.

My experience in the Northwest Territories is that the companies and the projects that involve the communities and people, and communicate the best, always have the best success rate. The indigenous people from across Canada are certainly expecting meaningful engagement on all fronts, and that doesn't exclude economic projects. They want to be part of all parts of a resource project from construction through the operation through the cleanup. They want to be part of the training design and opportunities as well as the employment opportunities. The communities that are close to the resource development also have very high expectations regarding their participation in, and deriving benefits from, resource projects employment through ownership opportunities. How does this government, more specifically your department, plan to help address this?

[Jim Carr, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

The most important value for me, and the lesson learned, is that the relationship indigenous people have with the land and the water is a generational relationship. When we approach a discussion about what to do with our resources that run through indigenous land, we hear time and time again that generations of ancestors have delivered the land and the water to us, and that we have an obligation in our time to leave the land as we have found it, or better, to the generations who come after us.

This is a wisdom and a perspective of understanding the relationship between the human and the land that gives us water, that gives us food, and that gives us life itself, which is very special.

If proponents of major energy projects are imbued with that sensitivity, with that clarity, and can understand that trusting relationships don't begin the day before you seek approval of a project and don't end the day after the project has been approved, but are relationships that extend years and in some cases generations, it is that meaningful consultation about values and about the power of culture and the relationship with the land and the water that will have to be an essential part of any approval process moving forward, in Canada.

That, to me, is one of the principal values at stake as we move forward.

I also know, in my conversations with indigenous leaders across the country, that they want economic development opportunities for their children. They want their kids to have the same aspirations that mine have, the same educational opportunities that mine have had, the same apprenticeship chances, the same professional aspirations that we find in all of our young people wherever we go in Canada, and that natural resource projects are economic development drivers. They want to be partners as we drive our natural resource economy forward with the very special understanding that we can't do it without that relationship with the land and the water.

[Michael McLeod, Liberal, Northwest Territories, NT]

Thank you for that response.

In the north we have very high unemployment. In some communities we have up to 60% unemployment and a lot of social issues, but at the same time we have a lot of opportunity. We have a lot of potential in terms of resource development and a lot of mines are seeking some exploration in the area. People want to be reassured that the regulatory process works well and that the environment is protected, but they also want to see that the benefits are there for projects that are close to the communities.

We still see a lot of fly-in workers from all parts of Canada and the world coming to work at the mines and on the oil and gas projects.

How would you encourage companies to give enough upfront notice so that the communities can prepare themselves? We have generations of people who were not employed before so we need to be able to start opportunity as soon as we recognize it.

[Jim Carr, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

I believe that companies are getting better and better with experience, with some setbacks and some successes. I believe that those relationships are developing and they are deepening as they must do if we're going to be moving on together. It's up to the companies and the regulator, as they prepare their applications, as those applications are assessed, to know that the evidence we are assessing as a government includes the evidence of indigenous cultural background and values.

I am quite optimistic, through my conversations with industry leaders, and at these round tables that we were talking about a few minutes ago, at which indigenous leaders, environmental activists, and industry leaders are together for a number of hours. Sometimes they've never spent any time together. What they're hearing about cultural practice might be for the first time, or expressed in a far more eloquent way than I can by those who feel the generational importance of these natural resource projects and decisions.

If we can generalize, I think that Canadians are open and diverse in our backgrounds. We embrace difference and I'm hopeful that the kinds of differences that you and I are articulating now will be seen as a strength for the country and a strength for the resource sector in Canada.

[The Chair, Liberal, James Maloney]

Minister, thank you very much.

We're going a little bit over time. Mr. Cannings, you have three minutes, and I'm going to adhere to it strictly.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

With that time limit, I just want to quickly follow up. We finished my question, and you were talking about the softwood lumber agreement. I was, as I say, just at the Council of Forest Ministers and talked to a Global Affairs Canada representative there. She pointed out that Canada's position was more or less ready to go. I just wondered what you might be able to tell us about that position, considering that things are quite different now than they were when we last set this agreement.

[Jim Carr, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

I know that Minister Freeland has been criss-crossing the country talking to industry coast to coast to coast, and she has a very good understanding of the various points of view that are being expressed. By the way, it's not one point of view. As you know better than I do, especially in that world, it's the job of the Government of Canada to adopt a negotiating position that on balance and in all circumstances is the best position for Canada to put forward. We also know that this is a tricky file. We know that it's important to have the influence and the buy-in of the President and the Prime Minister. We saw evidence of that in Washington on March 12. There is now a mandate for officials to come back within 100 days, and our department acts as a support for Minister Freeland as she begins to negotiate with the United States. We'll stay close to her, and I would like to stay close to you and other members of Parliament who have an important financial stake, industrial capacity, in the forest industries in your parts of the country to ensure that we're putting the best position forward on behalf of Canada.

[The Chair, Liberal, James Maloney]

Minister, thank you very much for indulging us.

We went a little bit over time, but we're very grateful to you for making time again. In the span of two short months, you've been kind enough to appear twice, and we very much appreciate that.

On that note we're going to suspend the meeting for a minute and then we're going to carry on.

[The Chair, Liberal, James Maloney]

We're going to carry on with the second part of the meeting.

We have Deputy Minister Hamilton who has been kind enough to hang around. He's joined by Kami Ramcharan, assistant deputy minister and chief financial officer, corporate management services sector.

It's 4:40 now and we have to conclude by 5:30. I'm told we need about 15 minutes to vote on the estimates. I propose to carry on in our normal format, but cut it off at 5:15 unless anybody objects.

Hearing no objections, shall we go straight to questions?

Mr. Lemieux.

[Denis Lemieux, Liberal, Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank our two witnesses.

One of the questions suggested to us by the Library of Parliament researchers really drew my attention. I will read it to you:

In this year's estimates, there is an increase of $14.1 million for the Investments in the Forest Industry Transformation (IFIT) program. IFIT was created in 2010 to “support Canada's forest sector in becoming more economically competitive and environmentally sustainable.” The program was renewed in February 2014, with an additional $90.4 million over four years. The renewal is intended to “help bring the next wave of innovation to market and ... solidify Canada's position as a leader in forest industry transformation.”

What is the breakdown of the renewed IFIT's $90.4 million over the program's four-year duration?