Evidence of meeting #9 for Natural Resources in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was pipeline.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Katrina Marsh  Director, Natural Resource and Environmental Policy, Canadian Chamber of Commerce
Byng Giraud  Vice-President, Corporate Affairs and Country Manager - Canada, Woodfibre LNG Ltd
Chris Bloomer  President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Energy Pipeline Association
Benjamin Dachis  Senior Policy Analyst, C.D. Howe Institute
Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Michel Marcotte

4:55 p.m.

Benjamin Dachis Senior Policy Analyst, C.D. Howe Institute

Thank you so much for having me speak to you today, even if I couldn't make it in person.

I'm an associate director of research at the C.D. Howe Institute. For those who are not aware, the C.D. Howe Institute is an independent, not-for-profit, research institute whose mission is to raise Canadian living standards by fostering economically sound public policies.

If I knew better than anyone else what the future of the oil and gas sector looked like, I'd currently be scuba diving off my own private yacht somewhere in the Caribbean. But here I am.

What I can point to is what the policy priorities for government should be to help foster an innovative and sustainable oil and gas sector in the future. I will be discussing a C.D. Howe Institute publication on the future of Canadian energy policy. It was published earlier this year. This paper, which you should receive from the clerk sometime soon, outlines the key priorities for Canadian governments of all levels for 2016 and beyond. It's blissfully short, and it's great bedtime reading, so I encourage you to take a look at it when you can.

There are four main themes that policy-makers should have in mind. First, the government should do more to improve the global competitiveness of Canada's energy sector. Second, governments need to earn social acceptance for Canadian energy to access global markets. Third, Canadian governments need to create collaborative governance institutions both at home and globally. And fourth, governments need to foster the innovation that Canada needs to realize the energy system of the future.

As I'm speaking to a federal committee, I'll focus my remarks mostly on matters within the power of the federal government. With the recent and sustained drop in oil and natural gas prices, energy producers are looking at how they can reduce their costs. Taxes are very high at the top of that list. In particular, municipal property taxes are becoming increasingly important costs for business.

At the federal level, the emerging competitiveness issue for the energy sector in 2016 and beyond is the potential fallout from the new government's campaign commitment to phase out what they term as “subsidies for the fossil fuel sector”. Its specific commitment was limited to making some exploration expenses deductible only in the case of unsuccessful exploration. This proposal has major implications for the competitiveness of the Canadian energy sector. Before making any changes, the federal government should take stock of the much bigger picture of what a good tax system should look like. I'd be happy to discuss this further during the question and answer period.

On the second theme, getting Canadian energy to world markets will remain a key priority for 2016 and well beyond. Having a robust regulatory approval system is critical for governments and the energy sector to ensure that Canada's energy products get to the world market safely and in an environmentally friendly, socially accepted way. But social acceptance entails more than the regulatory process. It requires that governments take the lead in areas outside the remit of regulators.

It's important that regulatory bodies are asked to adjudicate only on issues they have the power to address themselves. In the case of pipelines, such matters as greenhouse gas emissions should not be part of the regulatory approval process. A greenhouse gas policy led by governments would mean that a regulatory decision on building a pipeline would have no net effect on Canada's emissions.

But that's not what the federal government is doing. Instead, Canada's new federal government has pledged to revise the process the National Energy Board uses to approve pipelines to include upstream greenhouse gas emissions from energy production facilities that might serve a pipeline.

This new federal policy is a mistake for two reasons. First, requiring the National Energy Board to consider upstream emissions of greenhouse gases in its pipeline approval process could exceed the constitutional grounds for federal government reviews and intrude into provincial jurisdiction. Second, counting upstream greenhouse gases against an interprovincial pipeline would be economically costly without actually resulting in a reduction of emissions.

The federal government should put all means of getting oil to market on a level playing field. That means it should not rule against the pipeline because of its potential effects on upstream emissions.

Also, we can't forget the importance of rail, which has become increasingly important for crude oil exports because of the recent delays to pipeline approvals. Although the recent drop in oil prices has meant a drop in crude by rail shipments, we have to remember that shipping oil by rail has many inherent benefits of, say, flexibility and a lower set of costs beyond just reducing reliance on pipelines.

The question is how can Canada earn social acceptance for energy infrastructure to get built in this country. Governments themselves should demonstrate to the public that they will not interfere in regulatory decisions, and they should allow sound but timely regulatory reviews of projects without directives to decide one way or the other. Industry bodies and companies themselves should make better use of international benchmarks, certifications, and reporting requirements to demonstrate best-in-class regulatory adherence.

The key element isn't just that Canada have a best-in-class and independent regulatory system. We likely already have that. We must be seen to have a best-in-class and independent regulatory system. So what should governments do outside the regulatory process? Some form of carbon pricing, either by the federal or provincial governments, would be a more effective means of reducing emissions than blocking pipelines.

This brings me to my third point about collaborative governance. Carbon pricing likely will be the key collaborative governance issue in 2016 and beyond, and the new federal government will need to tackle a provincial policy patchwork on greenhouse gas policy. The four largest provinces have carbon prices in place or are planning to introduce them, and this decentralized approach has many merits. The best kind of carbon pricing policy in Alberta is likely very different from that in Ontario or B.C. or Quebec. With the provinces clearly demonstrating leadership in this area, the federal government should play a role limited to facilitating interprovincial linkages between carbon pricing regimes.

This brings me to my last point that Canada is going to need new technologies in order for us to reach our emissions reductions target. How are we going to foster the innovation that creates this new technology? We cannot just throw money at research and development subsidies in the hope that people will start using that technology. The research from around the world shows that a price on carbon alone without any research subsidies is about 95% as effective as a combined policy of carbon prices and research subsidies.

Carbon pricing is critical because it creates a demand for clean technologies in the broader economy and doesn't just push the supply of new technologies with subsidies. Rather than focus innovation and diversification policies on what is physically produced in Canada, governments should also think about fostering Canadian companies to become global leaders in the specific technologies they are best at applying.

In sum, Canadian governments need to think about how to improve their policies in four key areas: first, improve the global competitiveness of Canada's energy sector; second, help earn the social acceptance for access of Canadian energy to get to world markets; third, create collaborative governance institutions; and fourth, foster energy innovation.

With that, I'll be happy to take any questions

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

Thank you both for those presentations.

I'm going to move on and I'm going to be very strict with the timelines here.

Mr. McLeod, over to you.

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

Michael McLeod Liberal Northwest Territories, NT

Thank you, and thank you to both organizations for your presentations.

I wanted to, first of all, ask a question to the Canadian Energy Pipeline Association.

I'm completely aware of the benefits of economic and resource development projects, the benefits they can bring into areas, including where I live in the Northwest Territories. I got my start working with a pipeline company many years ago, when they were building the Norman Wells pipeline. It created a lot of opportunity for me and it allowed for a lot of employment, a lot of business development, and a lot of people to make a good living for several years.

There's also the benefit that we see in the north with companies, such as mining companies, that are exploring alternate energy and successfully developing projects like windmills and solar. Some of these practices are being transferred into the communities, which is really good to see. We all know that infrastructure is something that communities can benefit from, and this is a real challenge for us in the north. There's actually a barrier because of the lack of infrastructure. We're in a remote area, we're in a high-cost area, we have undeveloped infrastructure, and we have a small population.

I'm just curious to see what kind of advocacy your organization does in terms of promoting roads, airports, that would help industry move forward. We just went through a six-year hearing process on the Mackenzie Valley pipeline. I think if we had a road to support it, it would have lowered the costs and made it viable. This is prior to the oil prices dropping, of course.

Can you maybe give us some comment on that?

5:05 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Energy Pipeline Association

Chris Bloomer

With respect to what our organization does in terms of promoting infrastructure development, it's really related to the various operations that we have right now. We don't specifically go out and advocate for a road and so on. That's really for the project proponent to do that. Recognizing that, I think the infrastructure component of these pipelines does open up those opportunities, but we don't advocate for and promote specific infrastructure around pipelines.

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

Michael McLeod Liberal Northwest Territories, NT

My next question is for C.D. Howe. I wanted to ask if you could expand a little more on the comment you made about subsidies to oil and gas companies, mineral companies. The Canadian Chamber of Commerce talked about supporting the mineral exploration tax credit. Could you talk about what you were referring to when you talked about subsidies for industry?

5:05 p.m.

Senior Policy Analyst, C.D. Howe Institute

Benjamin Dachis

The federal government's campaign commitment was specifically limited to restricting the use by companies, oil and gas companies, for what are called Canadian exploration expenses. It was specifically limiting them to only be able to deduct them when they have an unsuccessful exploration.

But that's just one side of the coin of what you just raised. The other element is something similar to a flow-through share. When companies claim this Canadian exploration expense, it often gets flowed through to individual investors. This is part of a major theme of Canadian tax policy, which is what we have to think about when it comes to what to do when companies take on a risky endeavour. A company that takes on a risky endeavour should in many ways have that risk reflected in their taxes due.

Just touching one part of the equation, the Canadian exploration expenses, has a major flow-through effect, so to speak, on many other parts of the tax system, including what you just raised on the mineral exploration tax credit.

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

Michael McLeod Liberal Northwest Territories, NT

My second question to you is regarding the comment you made that “social acceptance entails more than the regulatory process”. Could you explain to us how social licence gives energy projects more credibility?

5:05 p.m.

Senior Policy Analyst, C.D. Howe Institute

Benjamin Dachis

We live in a democratic society. If you have a pipeline that is not approved by the vast majority of people who might be near it or be affected by it in some sort of way, it's probably not going to get built. There has to be some way of dealing with these sorts of issues that makes sense. Regulators themselves can't deal with every single issue that might come up with an affected party. They can deal with things very well when it comes to what the NEB has traditionally dealt with, when it comes to making sure that nearby environmental concerns are dealt with, such as the risk of a spill. What they can't deal with are things that affect all of us, like greenhouse gases.

The things that affect all of us as a society need to be dealt with by the people that we, as a society, elect to deal with the problem, and that's our parliamentarians at either the provincial or the federal level.

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

Michael McLeod Liberal Northwest Territories, NT

I have one last question and it's regarding aboriginal involvement. A lot of these projects are close to aboriginal communities throughout Canada. We know there are a lot of credible aboriginal companies. We know there are a lot of skilled aboriginal workers in the workforce, and there is involvement in almost all aspects when it comes to development of pipelines in oil and gas projects. However, I don't see participation to the same level in the regulatory processes.

Do you think that including aboriginal people in the regulatory process, through such things as the National Energy Board, is something we should be looking at?

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

You have 20 seconds to answer the question.

5:10 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Energy Pipeline Association

Chris Bloomer

Okay.

Yes.

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

Ms. Bergen.

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

Candice Bergen Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB

I'm going to split my time with my colleague, Ms. Stubbs.

Thank you, both, for being here. I wish we had more time with you.

Mr. Bloomer, I'm going to just ask you this directly. There is a myth that has been talked about a lot over the last six months that no projects were approved; that the NEB is completely broken; that communities haven't been able to be consulted; and that over the last 10 years no pipelines were built.

I find that interesting. I'm from southern Manitoba, Portage—Lisgar. In 2007 we actually applied for a pipeline and then it was built. Many landowners and other people were consulted, and it went through the National Energy Board process. It was approved.

Can you just tell us factually if there were projects that were applied for, that went through the NEB process and were approved, and whether pipelines were built over the last number of years?

5:10 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Energy Pipeline Association

Chris Bloomer

I'd say that over the past 10 years, under NEB auspices, several pipelines have been built. Certainly the Line 9 pipeline was approved under the NEB process. The Access pipeline and the initial Keystone pipeline were built. There is a list of pipelines that went through the regulatory process under the NEB, that went through consultation, that went through environmental review, and that were built.

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

Candice Bergen Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB

Those would have been approved by the Conservative government of the day?

5:10 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Energy Pipeline Association

Chris Bloomer

They would have been in that time frame.

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

Candice Bergen Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB

The NEB would have approved them?

5:10 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Energy Pipeline Association

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

Candice Bergen Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB

What does it say to industry and what does it say to workers when the narrative is out there that the regulatory process didn't work, and it's almost as though the work they did has just vanished?

5:10 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Energy Pipeline Association

Chris Bloomer

I think everybody wants to have a regulatory process that works. Everybody wants to have a regulatory process that has outcomes.

I think that's the biggest issue, that right now it's not clear how they're going to get to the outcomes with the current process. I think it's a bit up in the air.

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

Candice Bergen Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB

Obviously given the outcomes, the previous system did work over the last 10 years but there is some uncertainty now.

5:10 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Energy Pipeline Association

Chris Bloomer

There is a degree of uncertainty, and I think over the course of time in the near term here we'll see what that leads to, what the process is.

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

Candice Bergen Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB

Okay. Thank you.

To the gentleman from C.D. Howe, I really appreciated your presentation. I think you were able to say some things that maybe industry would be a little leery of.

I don't know if you heard my question to the Chamber. I'm concerned that, because the end decision is political and it's getting more and more political all the time, there might be some uncertainty or hesitation from industry to even criticize the process or to say anything critical, because the government might take it as criticism of the government itself. We don't see that in any other sector. We see agriculture speaking out against any government at any time. We see other sectors, but it seems that this sector, because the decisions are so closely tied to the government—

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

That's three and a half minutes.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

Candice Bergen Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB

All right, Shannon, take it from there.