Evidence of meeting #94 for Natural Resources in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was offshore.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Jim Keating  Executive Vice-President, Corporate Services and Offshore Development, Nalcor Energy
Gord Johns  Courtenay—Alberni, NDP
Patrick Bateman  Director, Canadian Solar Industries Association, Canadian Council on Renewable Electricity
Kevin Birn  Director, Energy, IHS Markit
Phil McColeman  Brantford—Brant, CPC

10:10 a.m.

Director, Canadian Solar Industries Association, Canadian Council on Renewable Electricity

Patrick Bateman

We would recommend that comprehensive stakeholder engagement needs to take place through the development of this process. I think a central agency that was tasked with identifying the needs of the community and working with all of the various different stakeholder groups to lay that out would be critical. Whether it's oil and gas renewables or subcomponents within the renewable sectors, everybody has a very different need, but also everybody has a different existing data source as well.

I think compiling what currently exists, identifying gaps, and ensuring that reporting is going to meet the needs of every different sector would be the way to go. I think it would be a very intense stakeholder session to begin with, but I think getting it right from the beginning would be key.

10:10 a.m.

Liberal

Geng Tan Liberal Don Valley North, ON

Using your solar industry as an example, I'm sure that it's similar to other electricity producers or other similar industry peers. The data collected from your energy producers also sometimes comes with some gaps or with some disconnections. You may still have to have the technical expertise to interpret or meet the gap by the kinds of approaches I just mentioned. How does the industry, or you as an industry association, judge the adequacy or the accuracy of the data produced second-hand when it is not the real data?

10:15 a.m.

Director, Canadian Solar Industries Association, Canadian Council on Renewable Electricity

Patrick Bateman

From the perspective of the solar industry, our electricity is largely metered. A number of the metrics that you would want to capture for solar are things that are very verifiable, so from that perspective a large part of the task for the solar industry is just going through the effort of defining what data is needed and capturing it.

Another issue specific to solar is that we're a new industry to Canada. While our numbers are small, our growth is large, and we feel that capturing that growth is very important. In the past the approaches to data collection have often had minimum thresholds that largely would mean that new technologies or small technologies wouldn't be captured. I think scoping is a very important issue that would need to take place up front—particularly for the solar industry, but I would expect for all sectors as well.

10:15 a.m.

Liberal

Geng Tan Liberal Don Valley North, ON

Okay.

In your opinion, how can the Government of Canada encourage your industry to have better development and utilization of better or more robust evidence data?

10:15 a.m.

Director, Canadian Solar Industries Association, Canadian Council on Renewable Electricity

Patrick Bateman

We would encourage a role for government that is much more enhanced than in the past for the aggregation of data, compilation of data, and making that data available, and also for analysis.

10:15 a.m.

Liberal

Geng Tan Liberal Don Valley North, ON

Okay.

My other question goes to Mr. Birn.

Mr. Birn, you directed the IHS Markit North American crude oil market analysis team. I checked your company's website, and your company argued that the world's most valuable resource is no longer oil, but data.

If data trumps oil in terms of value, then surely this new resource deserves more attention. Can you just comment or elaborate more on this statement?

10:15 a.m.

Director, Energy, IHS Markit

Kevin Birn

That's systemic. Let me think about it.

I think the reality is that information and making informed decisions is what drives the world, and we're seeing massive amounts of data being generated, so interpreting, understanding, and putting analytics around data for our clients is probably what that statement is regarding specifically. I don't think the statement was made in reflection of any specific commodity group that we service at this point.

10:15 a.m.

Liberal

Geng Tan Liberal Don Valley North, ON

Okay.

Maybe I want to share some time with my colleague. Do you want a quick one?

10:15 a.m.

Liberal

Nick Whalen Liberal St. John's East, NL

Yes. Thanks, Mr. Tan.

Mr. Bateman, with microgeneration of wind or solar or whatever the local user happens to be engaged in and the resulting drop in demand on the grid, how can we structure our grid so that we can collect that data and have that data shared with a national regulator? Do we need new legislation in place? Is it a quid pro quo for the creation of a smart grid? How do you envision this energy exchange from the microgenerators back to the regulator so that we have a firm grasp on what the demand is, what the supply is, and what our CO2 reductions are?

Thank you.

10:15 a.m.

Director, Canadian Solar Industries Association, Canadian Council on Renewable Electricity

Patrick Bateman

Thank you for the question, Mr. Whalen.

Currently a lot of Canada has advanced metering infrastructure, but not all of Canada. Most utilities, most regions, are moving in that direction, so it's likely that by the mid-2020s the vast majority of all electricity consumers will have advanced metering infrastructure. Those meters are capable of data collection and transmission at the sub-one-minute level, so it can be almost instantaneous. As the penetration of embedded generation or distributed generation increases, that data is going to become more and more valuable to utilities, and we will see them beginning to use it.

I would say that many utilities aren't ready for that level of data yet, but they are moving in that direction. Big data is one of the biggest challenges to the electricity sector, and one of the biggest opportunities as well.

10:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

Thank you.

Ms. Stubbs, we'll go over to you.

May 1st, 2018 / 10:20 a.m.

Conservative

Shannon Stubbs Conservative Lakeland, AB

Thanks, Mr. Chair. I appreciate that.

Thanks to all the witnesses for being here today.

Patrick, I want to raise a concern with you here and give you an opportunity to clarify. Then I'll probably move to the other witness after that. Here's what my concern is.

Your testimony so far echoes and is perfectly in line with what we've heard from experts before on this committee. In October 2017, for example, the professional lead and chief economist at the National Energy Board talked about the need for better data on energy, but what concerns me is that she said:

When we're looking at policy and changes to the energy system, if we had better [information].... What is the current state of events? We also have very poor information in Canada with respect to renewables. We have struggled...to fill that gap. We've put out renewables reports, but there is much work that could be done on the data side of that.

Then just last week the VP of the strategy and analysis unit said:

That would go to one of the gaps that people speak about, renewable energy. A lot of renewable energy is not tied into traditional data gathering sources, so we need a new method to find the information about renewable energy sources, use, uptake, and costs....

Naturally, I would agree that all this information is required. Here's what my concern is, and I'm not asking you to comment on this part. Of course there are multiple levels of government trying to drive consumers away from various sources of energy to renewable and alternative energies, probably faster than the market or the technology is leading. That's not the debate I want to get into. The fact is that the way governments are trying to do that is with billions of dollars in subsidies and legislative frameworks to try to force that shift.

For example, in terms of the percentage of the total amount of federal grants and contributions in Canada given to the energy sector in 2016 to 2017, 75% went to wind—75% of the total subsidies in the energy sector—much of it in direct subsidies. Only 6% went to fossil fuels. That was mostly in tax deductions or in capital cost allowances, and here you've said that defining what data is needed and capturing it is a requirement.

This is what my concern is. For example, in Ontario, we know that some of these projects have somehow been given exemptions from the Species at Risk Act in order to be rammed through. They've cost taxpayers billions of dollars. There have been several collapses of renewable and alternative energy companies in the U.S., which have not only put taxpayers on the hook for billions of dollars of the investments that were put into them but also incurred back-end reclamation and environmental costs involving thousands of square metres of hazardous waste.

This is a major commitment that governments are making on behalf of taxpayers. What deeply concerns me is that clearly from your own testimony, and from testimony of other representatives here, there is a critical lack of data and information even relating to, for example, environmental impacts and cumulative impacts. We're heard that said specifically about alternative and renewable energies.

Therefore it seems to me that if your testimony is true that this level of data is missing, that should be a serious and priority concern for provincial and territorial and federal governments that are charging ahead, sinking billions of tax dollars and picking winners and losers in certain kinds of energy development versus others.

I don't know if you have any comment about how we could expedite the capturing of this required data without creating a brand new separate agency or department or branch of government to do that. Then it would cost both private sector investors and taxpayers even more to collect data that clearly government should have been collecting a long time before it was ever sinking one dollar into picking certain types of development over others.

10:20 a.m.

Director, Canadian Solar Industries Association, Canadian Council on Renewable Electricity

Patrick Bateman

Thank you for the question, Ms. Stubbs.

I think a lot of those questions that you've raised are ones that we have answers to, and we can follow up afterwards.

Just to address one issue, I would say that in your home province, Alberta, the recent renewable energy procurement, which gave rise to contracts for 600 megawatts of wind, is likely unsubsidized. While large subsidies have been present in the past in order to get new technologies tested and proven, we feel that looking forward, renewables are becoming—

10:25 a.m.

Conservative

Shannon Stubbs Conservative Lakeland, AB

Certainly there's a long track record in terms of investment in renewable alternative energies in Alberta. Alberta is one of the leaders in the country in private sector investments in renewable alternative energy, which is directly related to all of the innovation driven by oil sands development, heavy oil and natural gas development, and our other long-term sources of conventional energy development in Canada.

That's why, of course, it makes no sense for governments to implement policies that would harm oil sands or a conventional source of energy, because that innovation and the technology used and developed by those investors and innovators in unlocking those sources of energy are exactly what lead the cutting edge of investments in renewable and alternative energies in the long-term future.

It would be great, I think, if you were able to follow up with our committee—

10:25 a.m.

Director, Canadian Solar Industries Association, Canadian Council on Renewable Electricity

Patrick Bateman

I'd be happy to.

10:25 a.m.

Conservative

Shannon Stubbs Conservative Lakeland, AB

—to provide some of that information.

To our other witness from IHS, I wonder if you want to share any concerns you might have around this concern I have, which is that I hope the government does not create a situation whereby private sector proponents are having to duplicate work that they're already doing, feeding it through provincial and territorial regulatory systems.

Certainly Alberta, as you alluded to, was the first jurisdiction in all of North America to set regulations for emissions, to set targets for reductions across all sectors, and to publish emissions. That work happened more than a decade ago. Alberta has been a world leader and is contributing to all of Canada in terms of transparency and data collection in energy development. An offshore witness we heard from earlier was talking very much about the necessity for geoscience and mapping in order to attract investors and prospectors to decide whether or not resources are recoverable—

10:25 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

If there's a question, I'm going to ask you to put it to him right now.

10:25 a.m.

Conservative

Shannon Stubbs Conservative Lakeland, AB

We agree with all of that, but I just wonder if there are any flags you want to raise in terms of a way that this could be done efficiently, without additional costs or burdens on the private sector.

10:25 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

Your answer is going to have to be very efficient too, because we're actually over time.

10:25 a.m.

Conservative

Shannon Stubbs Conservative Lakeland, AB

I'm sorry about that.

10:25 a.m.

Director, Energy, IHS Markit

Kevin Birn

I'll try to be really efficient.

If there is a duplication of data series between provincial and federal governments, you have the potential for misalignment between those series. Think of 12 provinces generating series and the federal government generating their own. Which one becomes right if they're misaligned? That's the question. It takes a lot of understanding to unpack what the assumptions are. They may all be valid, but what are the assumptions between them?

There are misalignments between regions. I'll give you an example of what I do: crude oil. Alberta publishes crude oil by quality—light, medium, and heavy—and there are cut-off points based on the density of the material. Saskatchewan does the same, but the density cut-off points are different. Unless you know that, if you start comparing these things, you can get some misunderstandings if you need that level of detail, and that depends on who your audience is. For our clients and what we use, we need that level of detail. The general public may not. The federal government has a role to align—

10:25 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

Thank you. I'm going to have to stop you there, Mr. Birn. Sorry.

Mr. Johns is next.

10:25 a.m.

Courtenay—Alberni, NDP

Gord Johns

Thank you to all of the witnesses for being here and as well for coming in via Skype.

I'll start with you, Mr. Bateman. As New Democrats, we're very excited about supporting renewable energy and a just transition. Maybe you can speak about what's lacking in data support for your sector that could enhance and support the development of renewables.

10:25 a.m.

Director, Canadian Solar Industries Association, Canadian Council on Renewable Electricity

Patrick Bateman

Thank you, Mr. Johns.

When supply-mix planners, policy-makers, or regulators are considering what the future supply mix will look like, cost is obviously one of the primary considerations. The cost of solar electricity will have dropped by about 90% between 2010 and 2020. Wind is following a similar trajectory. With these new technologies, the costs are coming down so quickly that when investments with a lifespan of 30 or 40 years are being made, it's of critical importance that people are doing so with the current and best information. I think those cost trends are an example of data that's missing from an independent Canadian impartial basis, which we have to go elsewhere and Canadianize. If that cost information were available in Canada, that would be one example of something that would be of great benefit to the market.

10:30 a.m.

Courtenay—Alberni, NDP

Gord Johns

You talked about the 600-megawatt wind project in Alberta. Can you give me some international comparisons of other countries that are taking steps to support renewables around data that might make it a lot easier or help support the growth of the sector you're in?