Evidence of meeting #2 for Natural Resources in the 43rd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was nafta.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Steve Verheul  Chief Negotiator and Assistant Deputy Minister, Trade Policy and Negotiations, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
Colin Barker  Director, Softwood Lumber Division, Global Affairs Canada
Jeff Labonté  Assistant Deputy Minister, Major Projects Management Office, Department of Natural Resources
Zachary Archambault  Deputy Director, Tariff and Goods Market Access, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

Good afternoon, everybody.

Thank you for joining us for what is our first formal meeting of the committee in this session.

As everybody knows, we've been tasked by the trade committee to review some provisions of some legislation regarding the free trade agreement that's pending approval by the House.

We agreed on some witnesses last week, and we've been fortunate enough to be joined today by officials from the Department of Foreign Affairs and the Department of Natural Resources.

Lady and gentlemen, thank you for coming.

We have, from Foreign Affairs, Steve Verheul as well as Zachary Archambault and Nicola Waterfield; and Jeff Labonté, from Natural Resources.

I'm not going to go on at all about the process, because all of you know it probably as well or better than the people around this table do. I'll simply say thank you for joining us.

Each department has up to 10 minutes to deliver remarks. I understand that Foreign Affairs is going to lead the way.

Mr. Labonté, you're going to wait until the question and answer session to make some remarks.

Mr. Verheul, I'm assuming you're going to start us off. The floor is yours.

3:30 p.m.

Steve Verheul Chief Negotiator and Assistant Deputy Minister, Trade Policy and Negotiations, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Good afternoon, Chair and members of the committee. Thank you for the invitation to appear before the committee today. We look forward to answering questions regarding the outcomes of the Canada-U.S.-Mexico agreement, or CUSMA, following my opening remarks.

Signature of the CUSMA on November 30, 2018, followed 13 months of intensive negotiations. It brought together a broad range of officials and stakeholders, with a strong partnership between federal and provincial officials. That agreement achieved several key outcomes that served to reinforce the integrity of the North American market, preserve Canada's market access into the U.S. and Mexico, and modernize the agreement's provisions to reflect our modern economy and the evolution of the North American partnership.

On December 10, 2019, following several months of intensive engagement with our U.S. and Mexican counterparts, the three NAFTA parties signed a protocol of amendment to modify certain outcomes in the original agreement related to state-to-state dispute settlement, labour, environment, intellectual property and automotive rules of origin. These modifications were largely the result of domestic discussions in the U.S. However, Canada was closely involved and engaged in substantive negotiations to ensure that all of these modifications aligned with Canadian interests. Throughout the negotiations, Canadian businesses, business associations, labour unions, civil society and indigenous groups were also closely engaged and contributed heavily to the final result.

Just by way of context, we need to recall that the NAFTA modernization discussions were unique in terms of free trade agreement negotiations. First of all, it was the first large-scale renegotiation of any of Canada's free trade agreements. Normally, free trade agreement partners are looking to liberalize trade. In this process the U.S. goal from the start of the negotiations was to rebalance the agreement in its favour. The U.S. President had also repeatedly threatened to withdraw from NAFTA if a satisfactory outcome could not be reached.

The opening U.S. negotiating positions were, to put it mildly, unconventional. These included the complete dismantlement of Canada's supply management system; the elimination of the binational panel dispute settlement mechanism for anti-dumping and countervailing duties; a state-to-state dispute settlement mechanism that would have rendered the agreement completely unenforceable; a 50% U.S. domestic content requirement on autos, which would have decimated our auto sector; removal of the cultural exception; a government procurement chapter that would have taken away NAFTA market access, leaving Canada worse off than all of the United States' other free trade agreement partners; and a five-year automatic termination of the agreement, known as the sunset clause.

The U.S. administration also took the unprecedented step of imposing tariffs on imports of Canadian steel and aluminum, on the basis of purported threats to national security, but without any kind of justification. The U.S. administration had also launched an investigation that could lead to tariffs on imports of Canadian autos and auto parts.

In the face of this situation, Canada undertook broad and extensive engagement with Canadians on objectives for the NAFTA modernization process. Based on the views we heard and on our own internal trade policy expertise, Canada set out a number of key objectives, which can broadly be categorized in the following overarching areas. First of all, we wanted to preserve important NAFTA provisions and market access into the U.S. and Mexico. Second, we wanted to modernize and improve the agreement, where that was possible. Third, we wanted to reinforce the security and stability of market access into the U.S. and Mexico for Canadian businesses.

In terms of outcomes, Canada maintained NAFTA tariff outcomes, including duty-free treatment for energy products. We maintained provisions on the so-called chapter 19 binational panel dispute settlement mechanism for anti-dumping and countervailing duty matters. We preserved the temporary entry for business persons chapter and access. The cultural exception was preserved. State-to-state dispute settlement was not only preserved but also improved in the negotiations.

In the area of autos, changes were made to the rules of origin regime to encourage the use of more inputs from Canada, in particular by increasing the regional value content requirements for autos and auto parts and removing incentives to produce in low-cost jurisdictions. Together with the quota exemption from potential U.S. section 232 tariffs on autos and auto parts, secured as a part of the final outcome, these new automotive rules of origin will incentivize production and sourcing in North America and represent important outcomes for both our steel and aluminum sectors.

With respect to modernizing NAFTA, we modernized disciplines for trade in goods and agriculture, including with respect to customs administration and procedures, technical barriers to trade, sanitary and phytosanitary measures, as well as a new chapter on good regulatory practices that encourage co-operation and protect the government's right to regulate in the public interest, including for health and safety.

Commitments on trade facilitation and customs procedures have been modernized for the 21st century to better facilitate cross-border trade, including through the use of electronic processes, which will reduce red tape for exporters and save them money. New and modernized disciplines on technical barriers to trade in key sectors are designed to minimize obstacles for Canadians doing business in the U.S. and Mexico, while preserving Canada's ability to regulate in the public interest. The agreement also includes modernized obligations for cross-border trade and services and investment, including financial services, telecommunications and a new digital trade chapter.

On labour and environment, we have made important steps forward by concluding ambitious chapters that are fully incorporated into the agreement and ensure that domestic laws will not be deviated from as a means to gain an unfair trading advantage.

The outcome also includes a special enforcement mechanism that will provide Canada with an enhanced process to ensure the effective implementation of labour reforms in Mexico, specifically related to freedom of association and collective bargaining.

Finally, the outcome has advanced Canada's interest towards inclusive trade, including through greater integration of the gender perspective and better reflecting the interests of indigenous peoples, including through an exception for indigenous rights.

There were a few other outcomes of interest.

On supply management sectors, I'll start by recalling that the U.S. made an explicit and public demand for the complete dismantlement of Canada's supply management system, but in the end we preserved the three key pillars of supply management and granted only limited access to the U.S. The government has been clear in its commitment to provide full and fair compensation to farmers for losses in market access.

On intellectual property, certain outcomes will require changes to Canada's current IP legal and policy framework in certain areas, such as IP rights enforcement to provide ex officio border authority for suspected counterfeit or pirated goods in transit, as well as criminal offences for the unauthorized and wilful misappropriation of trade secrets.

In other areas, Canada has transition periods to implement its commitments, for instance, on the obligation to provide a copyright term of the life of the author plus 70 years. Again, it currently provides a term of life plus 50 years. We have a two and a half year transition period to implement this obligation.

Under the amending protocol, the parties agree to remove the obligation to provide 10 years of data protection for biologic drugs, meaning that Canada does not need to make any changes to its existing regime in this area.

With respect to energy specific obligations, the agreement addresses a long-standing request from Canadian industry to resolve a technical issue related to the use of diluents, a petroleum-based liquid that is often added to crude oil to ensure it flows properly through pipelines. This issue had previously added upwards of $60 million a year in duties and other fees for Canadian businesses.

We also addressed an issue of concern to some Canadians by removing the energy proportionality clause. It also recognizes the parties' interests in harmonizing energy efficiency performance standards and test procedures.

Canada and the United States also agreed to a bilateral side letter on energy co-operation and transparency. It includes provisions that will help provide Canadian stakeholders with more assurances and transparency with respect to the authorization process to participate in the energy sector in the United States. For example, Canada and the U.S. agreed to publish information, including the application process, monetary payment and relevant timelines related to these authorizations.

In closing, I would like to underline that objectives for these negotiations were informed very closely by Canadian priorities and interests, close engagement with provinces and territories as well as a wide range of stakeholders.

This concludes my opening remarks. Alongside my colleagues, I would be pleased to answer any questions you may have.

Thank you.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

Thank you very much.

Mrs. McLeod, are you going to lead us off?

February 24th, 2020 / 3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Cathy McLeod Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC

Thank you.

Certainly, I'd like to thank you and your team. It's probably been a very challenging year or two now, and we're into the final steps of dealing with this agreement.

First, I have a notice of motion, which I'll read and will hand out copies. Apparently the Speaker turned down the request for the emergency debate on Teck Frontier, so the motion is:

That, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), the Standing Committee on Natural Resources immediately undertake a study on the cancellation of the Teck Frontier Mine; that witnesses for the study include the Minister of Natural Resources and officials from Natural Resources Canada; that the study be comprised of no less than 5 meetings; and that these meetings be televised.

Obviously, we will have this conversation at a later date because it is just a notice of motion.

Now I'll head into my questions.

As you're aware, we're the natural resources committee, and we really only had a small section of the legislation referred to us.

I come from British Columbia, and for me, one of the biggest trade irritants for years and years has been softwood lumber. Was there anything that precluded the government from making that a priority in the same sense that it suggested that gender and some other priorities...? As the government went into negotiations, was it feasible for it to actually make that a priority as one of its objectives?

3:40 p.m.

Chief Negotiator and Assistant Deputy Minister, Trade Policy and Negotiations, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Steve Verheul

I need to start by providing a little bit of context.

Softwood lumber is not outside of the agreement. The agreement provides that there should be duty-free trade between all three countries with respect to softwood lumber. The agreement also provides that the U.S. has a right to pursue anti-dumping and countervailing duties against imports if it sees fit to launch those investigations. If the U.S. breaches some of its own laws in doing those investigations and applying those results, then we have the right to challenge them under the chapter 19, now chapter 10, dispute settlement process that we managed to preserve.

I think, from our perspective, we didn't really want to lock some kind of managed trade situation on softwood lumber into a free trade agreement. Certainly, we would like the U.S. to stop pursuing us on these anti-dumping and countervailing duty investigations, but we're not sure that the place to solve that is within the free trade agreement.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Cathy McLeod Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC

You talked about a bilateral side letter. Did the government ever suggest that it wanted to have...? I mean, we have thousands and thousands of jobs in British Columbia that are being lost because of.... The 20% duty is certainly a big contributing factor. Was there any discussion about perhaps having a side agreement? I know that many years ago, then president Obama and Prime Minister Trudeau committed to getting a resolution. That was many years ago now.

Was that brought up at the table in terms of a side letter discussion in the same way that you did for energy?

3:45 p.m.

Chief Negotiator and Assistant Deputy Minister, Trade Policy and Negotiations, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Steve Verheul

We did have many discussions on softwood lumber on the margins of the negotiations. Certainly, we would have a strong interest in resolving this issue, but what we heard from the U.S. side was that its domestic industry had no interest in negotiating an agreement at this point in time.

Since then, we have been continuing to pursue challenges, both at the WTO and under the NAFTA dispute settlement process. We have won an important case on that under the NAFTA, and I think that gives us a stronger position to negotiate an agreement at some point in the future. However, at this point, there is no appetite on the other side to come to the table.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Cathy McLeod Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC

Perhaps there's no appetite on the other side to come to the table, but there was also an appetite around what they wanted to do with supply management. It sounds like you believe that we ended up in a reasonable place because the government put a priority on preserving supply management.

It doesn't sound to me like the softwood lumber issues, although subject to maybe some side conversations, had that same push by our government in terms of getting to a resolution. I look at so many areas where you did come to some sort of resolution and agreement. Again, this one is really hurting, and it's hurting our secondary industries just as much or more.

3:45 p.m.

Chief Negotiator and Assistant Deputy Minister, Trade Policy and Negotiations, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Steve Verheul

I would certainly tell you that it is a priority for our department. We have a division dedicated to softwood lumber and we are working on that and trying to find ways forward all of the time. We just don't have a willing partner to negotiate on the other side.

What we need to do is continue to win in these cases so the U.S. has no choice but to come to the table. If we have a discussion now, I don't think we will see much flexibility in the U.S. position, which is something we've probed and tested and have yet to see any flexibility on. By winning these cases, as we most frequently do, then we have a much better position to negotiate from.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

Thank you. We're right on time.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Cathy McLeod Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC

I had so much more.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

The good news is you should get another chance.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Cathy McLeod Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC

Mr. Lefebvre.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Lefebvre Liberal Sudbury, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for being here and, as my colleague Ms. McLeod said, thank you for all the hard work in the past few years. There were a lot of sleepless nights back and forth. We were very proud of our team, and certainly the team representing Canada. We've heard some really good stories about all the hard work, and certainly it has paid off.

We're here today because there have been some delays going on, the machinations of Parliament. I want to ask you straight out, can we amend CUSMA, and if we do, what are the consequences of that?

3:45 p.m.

Chief Negotiator and Assistant Deputy Minister, Trade Policy and Negotiations, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Steve Verheul

We'd have to propose amendments. If we were to propose amendments to the U.S. and to Mexico, we would have to engage, if they were willing to do so, in a new negotiation to come up with a new balance of concessions among all three parties. I have to say that given the conversations we've had with the U.S., I find it highly unlikely that they would engage in those discussions with us. In fact, in their statement of implementation, they have included a provision which says that they could move ahead alone with Mexico and without Canada if we took too long or were not following what they want.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Lefebvre Liberal Sudbury, ON

To the second part of my second question, what would be the consequences of that?

3:50 p.m.

Chief Negotiator and Assistant Deputy Minister, Trade Policy and Negotiations, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Steve Verheul

The consequences of that, I think, would be to risk our participation in the new agreement.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Lefebvre Liberal Sudbury, ON

Lengthy delays in ratification certainly increase the uncertainty. In your view, what are the consequences of delaying the ratification of this agreement?

3:50 p.m.

Chief Negotiator and Assistant Deputy Minister, Trade Policy and Negotiations, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Steve Verheul

If we delay the ratification for a significant period of time, the U.S. has clearly indicated to us that they will proceed with Mexico and leave Canada behind.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Lefebvre Liberal Sudbury, ON

I'll broaden my original question. What are the economic consequences of not being part of CUSMA?

3:50 p.m.

Chief Negotiator and Assistant Deputy Minister, Trade Policy and Negotiations, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Steve Verheul

I think they would be quite significant. More than 70% of our exports go to the U.S. We rely heavily on the U.S. market. We rely heavily on the North American market. The economic consequences would be quite significant. We will have an economic impact assessment coming out in the fairly near future that will indicate just exactly how much the losses would be in that kind of scenario.

We also have to keep in mind that if we are not part of the new NAFTA, the U.S. will likely reimpose steel and aluminum tariffs on us, because the condition for getting rid of steel and aluminum tariffs is that you have to have a free trade agreement.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Lefebvre Liberal Sudbury, ON

Thank you.

I want to talk about the energy proportionality clause. I want to know, in your opinion, what the long-term benefits of having article 605 removed would be. What would the removal of that clause provide to our energy sector?

3:50 p.m.

Chief Negotiator and Assistant Deputy Minister, Trade Policy and Negotiations, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Steve Verheul

The removal of the clause gives us more flexibility. It means if we are going to be imposing any kind of restrictions on our exports or any kind of changes on our supply, then we are not required to provide a proportional amount to our supply of exports to the U.S. and to Mexico. We're not locked in. We can make policy decisions domestically in those areas without any obligations towards the U.S. and Mexico.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Lefebvre Liberal Sudbury, ON

Do the expansions of Line 3, Keystone XL and Trans Mountain represent economic opportunities for Canada?

3:50 p.m.

Chief Negotiator and Assistant Deputy Minister, Trade Policy and Negotiations, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Steve Verheul

I believe they do, because we've made significant improvements in the text. In particular, we have a side letter with the U.S. on some of these issues, particularly a number of issues on which we're going to try to adopt more common regulatory standards and more transparency among us. I think a number of trade facilitation measures among us will actually enhance our exports to the U.S.