Natural Resources Committee on April 4th, 2022

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

On a point of order, I'm just curious. I thought we were talking about sustainable jobs and a just transition. I'm a little confused, at this point, about what this has to do with workers and regions and our communities. Perhaps I could have a little bit of help to understand that.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

I stopped the clock. I wasn't sure if this was a point of order. I think the member has the ability to ask questions.

I don't know what kind of list you have here, Mr. Maguire—

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

There are just a few more.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

—if the officials want to make any comment on the list of things. The officials will then be invited to supply whatever information they can. We can see if there is any relevance, as the analysts write the report, to the information that's being requested.

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

It's my time.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

It's your time.

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

Okay.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

I'll restart the clock. I stopped it, so you still have a minute and 45 seconds left.

It's back to you.

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

I'm glad to answer that.

It's just as I said in my opening comments, before the questions started, that it's to get a base of information. I'm asking for any information that is available. If it isn't available, well, we'll look at that.

I would ask, as well, if they could please table any information with the committee on how many tonnes of these minerals I just listed are produced in Canada every year, broken down by province. That has to be available, I think, through the provincial areas as well. I'm sure there's an accumulation of it at some point.

Can they please table with the committee the aggregated and fulsome list of funding that the government has provided since the fall of 2015 in support of research and development on small modular nuclear reactors as well? Those were the ones I was talking about in regard to some of the remote areas of Canada. We need to have a base of where we were at before, as the study moves on.

There are just two more, Mr. Chair.

We know there is a shortage of Red Seal-certified tradespeople in Canada. That's been talked about. We know there will be a demand for tradespeople for the development of green technology. Can they please table with this committee a list of projected Red Seal trades skills needed to meet the expected demand for this just transition?

The last one, Mr. Chair, is that Canada is in the top 10 oil and natural gas-producing countries in the world. We have some of the highest environmental labour standards in the world. The sector provides hundreds of thousands of jobs and contributes over $100 billion to Canada's GDP. To the best of their knowledge, have any of the other nine top energy-producing countries—the United States, Saudi Arabia, Russia, China, Iraq, Iran, UAE, Brazil and Kuwait—implemented an emissions cap for their oil and gas sectors?

That's one that maybe they could answer now.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Yes, but unfortunately we're out of the six minutes at this point.

You've been able to put forward many requests for information. We'll work with the clerk. We can actually send that out to the participants here today and see if they have information that can be shared.

If anyone wants to pick up on any of this, they will have other opportunities as we go around in the time remaining in the meeting.

With that, we have Ms. Jones next.

You have six minutes.

[Yvonne Jones, Liberal, Labrador, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank our guests who are before the committee today. Thank you for your opening comments.

I also want to say to my colleague who just asked questions that the critical minerals study that was released has a lot of the information in it in terms of mineral production, quantities and exports. A lot of that information is in that report as well. I just wanted to point that out.

My colleague talked about the impact on jobs. We know that in a just transition there are going to be new opportunities and new jobs. I'd like to focus on that as well. We know that transitioning with energy means transitioning with jobs and employment. We have to be very proactive to protect Canadians and to ensure that they can make this transition and that they have the skills they need to do it.

What sectors do you predict will have the greatest employment opportunities and growth? I think in identifying these sectors, we can get a very good picture of where some of those jobs are going to be and what skills will be required.

That's for whoever would like to go first. It's probably Mr. Brown.

[Andrew Brown]

Thanks for the question.

I'm just looking at Chris here. I'm wondering if he wants to jump in on that.

[Chris Bates, Director General, Apprenticeship and Sectoral Initiatives Directorate, Department of Employment and Social Development]

Yes. Thank you, Andrew.

We are looking at different sectors. As pointed out earlier by the other member, certainly some of the trades will be severely impacted. We think all sectors will be impacted to differing degrees.

Workers in some sectors will require a little skills upgrading to adjust to changes in their jobs, whereas for those in other sectors, there will be transformational changes to their jobs with completely new skill sets required. Sectors like transportation could see impacts. Certainly the environment sector will have impacts. The oil and gas sector, as we transition to a hydrogen economy, will as well.

Maybe some of the NRCan colleagues here might have additional details as well.

[Debbie Scharf]

One of the things I would mention is that a number of studies have been done to look at the type of growth that could be expected from the clean energy sector, which includes a number of the areas that my colleagues from ESDC just mentioned: from the production of clean energy, like clean hydrogen or biofuels, to the production of clean electricity and zero-emission vehicles. These are all types of sectors of trades, of course, for energy efficiency.

I would point out that some fairly large studies have looked at this. Clean Energy Canada projected a 2.5% growth year over year, over the next decade, in the clean energy sector. As well, the Royal Bank of Canada did an analysis that projected 235,000 to 400,000 new clean energy jobs by 2030.

These studies are certainly interesting to look at as well, as you're thinking about whom you would like to bring forward in your future meetings to unpack that question in more detail for you.

[Yvonne Jones, Liberal, Labrador, NL]

That's good information, and I'm sure our committee will certainly entertain doing that as well.

You were talking about creating a just transition advisory body. To help our committee move forward with our study, can you tell us what this advisory body would do? What role do you guys see for it? What would be the relationship between it and the net-zero advisory body that we're looking at as well?

I don't want the public to be bogged down with all of these committees, so understanding what their role is in working with industry, unions, provinces and territories and, of course, indigenous governments will give us a better understanding of the work we're going to undertake in the next few weeks as well.

[Debbie Scharf]

Thank you for that question.

Right now we're undergoing consultations on what could be in just transition legislation. We have a discussion paper out, in which we're proposing a just transition advisory body, but certainly what we hear from Canadians could influence and refine some of the thinking in that space. I just want to put that caveat out there when I describe what we're proposing the just transition advisory body, if one were to proceed, could do.

Number one, we see this as a body that could provide ongoing advice to the government on the type of regional and sectoral strategies and actions that would need to take place in the years to come. Number two, it would play a consultative role to help keep the social dialogue going. In this particular area, it's important to keep social dialogue with Canadians going. Those are the two types of functions.

In terms of the net-zero advisory body, very quickly, this body provides advice on the pathways to net zero. A just transition advisory body could provide advice on the types of actions we need to take to build sustainable jobs and the right skills for Canadians to meet the pathways to net zero.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

That's the end of your time, Ms. Jones.

[Yvonne Jones, Liberal, Labrador, NL]

Okay.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

We're going to go now to Mr. Simard.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

Thank you.

I have a quick question for Ms. Scharf.

In her presentation, she said that the department is currently working on a just transition bill and that meetings were held. I assume that these meetings will lead to feedback. However, I know that you don't undertake this type of bill without having some guiding principles.

I would like her to elaborate on the principles that will guide the consideration of this bill.

[Debbie Scharf]

I want to thank the member for his question.

We are proposing, as outlined in the discussion paper that was released, a series of just transition principles that could be outlined in legislation, which would guide government decision-making on these issues and in the context of climate change. These were informed by international guiding principles—by the International Labour Organization as a starting point—and we are seeking feedback on them.

If you'd like to have a little bit more detail on what those principles are, I'd like to turn it over to my colleague Roisin Reid, who can give a little more detail on the principles.

[Roisin Reid, Director, Energy and Environment Policy Division, Department of Natural Resources]

Thank you.

On the principles, I'll repeat Debbie's caveat from earlier that these will, of course, be informed by the feedback from our ongoing consultations with stakeholders and partners. We looked at the ILO's guidance document on just transition and tried to come up with some principles that would complement what they're telling us are the best practices.

The first one we have is that we continue to have adequate, informed and ongoing dialogue on a people-centred just transition that would engage all relevant stakeholders to build strong social consensus on the pathways to net zero. The second one is that policies and programs in support of a people-centred just transition must create decent, fair and high-value work designed in line with regional circumstances and recognizing the different needs, strengths and potential of communities and workers.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

Thank you.

That wasn't exactly where I was headed. In my previous life, I taught at a university. If a student told me that he was starting a job with such vague and diverse intentions, I would have said that it didn't bode well.

I'll be more specific. If you're talking about the principles that should govern the just transition, you should first explain what you mean by “transition”. To me, it means making us less dependent on oil and gas. The government's actions seem like a search for vague solutions. A number of witnesses appeared before the committee to illustrate this point. It's more about looking for solutions to increase oil production by reducing intensity levels.

In my opinion, the transition principle involves not only a reduction in oil consumption, but also investments to provide new jobs for people who will probably and unfortunately be left out in the cold.

Is this part of your thought process?

[Debbie Scharf]

Thank you very much for the question.

I would say, around the transition, just to lay this marker, that there are multiple pathways for how we get to the transition to the net-zero economy. We can't say up front that it will take five tablespoons of this and three tablespoons of that. There are multiple pathways. We know what those pathways are. We have an understanding of what it will take to get there, but there are multiple pathways.

When we think about a just transition, perhaps I'll elevate three concepts for you that I think are really important. The first is that you want to support workers to have the right skills for the types of jobs that are going to be emerging in the clean energy economy. Second, you want to have an inclusive economy, which means you want to break down barriers so that all Canadians can participate in the workforce, including those who've historically been marginalized. Third, when there are communities or workers who are impacted, you find ways to minimize those impacts.

Those are three aspects of a just transition that are important to consider in the context of the net-zero transition.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

I understand, but you're leaving me somewhat wanting. If you want to talk about a just transition, I believe that it will take courageous steps.

I want to determine whether you know the ratio of oil and gas sector jobs and financial support for the sector, or if there's a way to calculate it. I'm asking because we conducted a study on the emissions reduction fund. The commissioner of the environment clearly showed that the money invested didn't help meet the goal set by the program, which was to maintain jobs.

Lastly, I want to warn you about your just transition. It mustn't be a greenwashing activity where you justify the funding provided to the oil and gas sector without ever considering the effects on workers. A just transition is about putting workers first, and not oil companies.

Your response worries me a little bit. You're saying that we need to maintain a robust economy. What will be the priority, the workers or the robust economy?