Natural Resources Committee on April 6th, 2022

[Eric Melillo, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Do you need their consent?

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

—in a manner that will meet the concerns and the aspirations they communicate to us.

[Eric Melillo, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Do you need their consent? I think it's a very simple question.

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

As I said, we will be setting out through the process to try to achieve consensus with all the folks who are providing input through the process. However, we certainly intend to have meaningful consultation with indigenous communities.

[Eric Melillo, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

That's certainly a non-answer.

Mr. Guilbeault, do you feel that the government needs the consent of indigenous communities before imposing this emissions cap?

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

I agree entirely with what Minister Wilkinson just said.

[Eric Melillo, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Okay. You agree with the non-answer. That's great to know. Thank you.

I believe that Indigenous Services Canada recognizes 634 first nations communities in the country. Minister Wilkinson, can you tell us how many communities you have consulted so far?

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

As you will be well aware, having heard from many of the witnesses, this is a relatively early part of the process. It is a process that is being led by Environment Canada. There have been initial conversations, but there will be many more.

Off the top of my head, I can't tell you how many indigenous communities.... I can't tell you how many individuals of the 37 million Canadians who may have an interest in this have participated either.

[Eric Melillo, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Would you be able to consult the department and come back to the committee with that information?

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

I'm absolutely happy to.

What I would say to you is that the government is looking to ensure that communities that have a strong interest in this put their hands up and tell us that they want to participate. That's in the same way we would be looking for members of the Conservative Party, members of the New Democratic Party, unions, businesses, and everybody else.

[Eric Melillo, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Thank you.

Let's go back to my first question, because we didn't get a clear answer on that.

Dale Swampy, from the National Coalition of Chiefs, spoke to the committee. He noted the importance of the natural resource sector to the communities that he deals with and how the natural resources sector is helping to alleviate poverty on reserve. He gave some great testimony, and I think it was clear that he is—I'll be a bit gracious to you—a bit unsure about the direction of this emissions cap.

I'll go back. In a scenario such as this, do you believe that you would need the consent of a community, the consent of an individual like Mr. Swampy, before moving forward on an emissions cap?

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

As I've said, we are absolutely committed to deep consultations to ensure that we are thoughtful and thinking through the input that indigenous communities provide to us.

I would say to you that one of the pieces of my mandate letter, which you probably know, is to develop an indigenous benefits sharing framework associated with the extraction of natural resources. I'm very much engaged in the conversation and very much aware of how important projects in the natural resources sector are to indigenous peoples.

[Eric Melillo, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Okay. I think I'm going to give you one more chance.

Do you think you need his consent before moving forward?

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

As I said, we will be reaching out and looking for indigenous communities to reach out to us to ensure that we are gathering the information that needs to be gathered as we try to think through the best way to implement this cap, in the same way that we will with provinces and territories, and others.

[Eric Melillo, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Okay. I appreciate that.

Minister, again, thinking of the importance of natural resources to these communities, moving forward, do you acknowledge how important natural resources are to many indigenous communities across the country? Do you realize that an emissions cap, even if it's just in the short term, and especially if it becomes a cap on production, rather than just emissions, would create a lot of economic hardship for first nations and indigenous communities across the country?

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

I am very much aware of that. I think I just said that many of these kinds of natural resource projects are very important, from an economic perspective, to indigenous communities. We are very much aware of that. That is why the national benefits-sharing framework is part of the work we will be doing over the course of the next couple of years.

Absolutely it is extremely important, and their input in this process is extremely important.

[Eric Melillo, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

We will now go to Ms. Lapointe for five minutes.

[Viviane LaPointe, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I also thank the ministers for being with us today.

Mr. Guilbeault, could you share with the committee what steps the government will take to engage first nations in the design and implementation of the emissions cap to ensure that they can benefit, that risks can be mitigated, and that the needs of each community will be considered?

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Thank you very much for the question.

I am pleased to report that engagement with our first nations partners is well underway and we will continue to encourage their participation and consult with them throughout the process.

Our government is fully, significantly and thoroughly committed to doing so. We recognize the important role that the oil and gas sector plays as an employer for many first nations, Inuit and Métis communities, and therefore their views will guide us in the design of this cap.

In early conversations with national organizations, we heard interest both in strong measures to reduce greenhouse gas emissions and in efforts to protect jobs in indigenous communities, which depend on the oil and gas sector. The implementation of a cap must be done in a way that respects and defends the rights of indigenous peoples.

I look forward to continuing the dialogue with our indigenous partners on this issue over the coming months.

[Viviane LaPointe, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

Thank you.

My next question is for both ministers.

We've heard many witnesses speak about the importance of decreasing emissions rather than focusing on the production. Could both ministers speak to this, particularly in the context of how this position will support good-paying jobs?

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Thank you for the question.

Let me be clear. The purpose of the cap on emissions for the oil and gas sector is exactly that, a cap on emissions. The objective is to provide ambitious and achievable emission reduction targets for the sector. This will help to drive up innovation technologies that will further support the reduction of emissions and grow our clean industrial advantage, which the world is striving for. Doing this work now is essential for the success of our decarbonization efforts, of which many good-paying job are dependent on.

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

This whole issue in terms of decreasing emissions versus focusing on production is important, and not just from a constitutional perspective and a jurisdictional perspective. If you think about global demand, all of the projections for global demand for oil show oil demand going either a little bit up, or, in the case of the IEA 1.5° scenario, a little bit down by 2030.

Between now and 2030, we have to make significant reductions in emissions. Of course, the reason that production won't go down significantly by 2030 is that you don't have a broad enough deployment of zero-emission vehicle technology. We need to ensure that we are driving down emissions at a time when the world is still demanding similar amounts of oil to what it is today. That is something that this cap is focused on: finding ways to incent and drive innovation to reduce emissions at a time when global demand is not declining.

After 2030, of course, with lower-carbon content barrels, the work that is done to drive down emissions so that the production emissions are very small is going to have value in the international community.

At the end of the day, we need to ensure that this cap will actually drive technology deployment that will reduce emissions, whether that's CCUS, hydrogen—and it's a range of other things—and that is exactly what this is intended to do.

[Viviane LaPointe, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Wilkinson, as we continue to consider new measures and move towards a greener economy, could you talk about how our government will help workers in the sector transition to more sustainable jobs?

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

Thank you for the question.

I believe that first and foremost we need to change the way we look at the energy transition. By taking thoughtful and decisive action now, we can foster Canadian competitiveness, growth and prosperity for decades to come.

Regionally, each of the provinces operates in a relatively unique natural resource situation. As such, the economic opportunities available to them and the approaches to a green transition and clean energy will differ across the country.

I will continue these conversations. Later this year, I intend to initiate a series of dialogue processes, at the regional level, that will focus on identifying and developing key regional opportunities and opportunities that will create the work of the future.

As the committee is also aware, our government is working to advance legislation and a comprehensive action plan to support sustainable jobs in Canada. This work is guided by ongoing consultations with workers, unions, indigenous partners, employers and provincial and territorial governments to support the future of workers and their communities in the transition to a greener, cleaner economy.