Natural Resources Committee on April 27th, 2022

[Lionel Railton]

The entire workforce, both in the construction and the operation of these plants, is unionized 100%.

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

It's the operations as well—

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Sorry, Larry. I'm going to stop the clock here for a second.

I apologize. The vote bells have just started. For our witnesses, this means that we're not allowed to continue without unanimous consent of the committee members.

I would suggest that it would take us just under 11 minutes to finish off this round. Are we good to go?

Yes, there is consent.

We'll still aim to wind up by 5:30 p.m. That'll get us into the bell period.

Larry, it's over to you.

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

Thanks.

Do you know of any data in terms of union rates in wind and solar?

[Lionel Railton]

Unionized rates in wind and solar are low, and the compensation packages in wind and solar are also low. It's within our industry while they're being constructed, because we erect most of the wind turbines and solar farms. That portion of the construction is highly unionized, but it's pretty simple. When you drive by a plant, be it nuclear or a refinery, you'll see lots of cars and trucks parked in front of it. Drive by a solar farm or a wind turbine farm, and guess what? There may be one truck there, and that's the maintenance technician's.

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

That's a good point. We've heard that 96% of the jobs in the nuclear supply chain are made in Canada, so those jobs and the wealth stay here.

Should we take into consideration supply chain challenges and energy security when providing recommendations to the government on this just transition?

[Lionel Railton]

I think it's in all of our best interests as Canadians to ensure that we have energy security. Clearly, the events in the world—I'm no expert on it, so I won't speak to it—are having major impacts on our citizens in Canada, and energy security clearly should be top of mind, I would think.

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

That's a good point that leads in to my next one—

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

No, we're out of time there. It's over the five minutes. We need to jump to Madame Lapointe.

Go ahead, Ms. Lapointe. You have five minutes.

[Viviane LaPointe, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

Thank you, Chair Aldag.

My question is for Mr. Railton.

In Canada, most of our natural resources are geographically situated in northern, remote and rural areas. Given that skilled labour is presently at a crisis point in many sectors, how can we bridge local labour sources with training and employment opportunities, in your opinion?

[Lionel Railton]

Thank you for the question.

We have a very good example of this. We represent 1,100 workers who work in an iron ore mine called the Mary River on Baffin Island. It's a very remote mine. It is the richest iron ore body that's currently being mined in the world, and actually one of the greenest iron ore mine operations in the world, believe it or not.

To your point, we were very proactive with the company in using our training facilities and bringing people from the north, having them train so they could work in that mine. We drew from the five communities on Baffin Island—Pond Inlet and others. Currently, of the 1,100 who are working there, 350 are from the communities of Baffin Island. We're very proud of that. We've also trained over 1,100 workers out of the north, the Territory of Nunavut, to support their communities and build their communities—their houses and their roads—and maintain the roads.

Most of it is non-union, but they saw us as the best option with respect to training their workers, because, first and foremost, we had training facilities that provided dormitories where they could come and stay. For a lot of these community members, this is the first time they've been out of their community. We brought their elders to supervise them. We brought their diets.

We are very proud of the number of workers we have trained for the north. We're very skilled at it, and it's a very proud legacy as far as we're concerned.

[Viviane LaPointe, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

Thank you for that.

An equitable labour transformation through Canada's energy transformation is critically important, but I believe what's even more important should be equitable opportunities for those traditionally left out of these opportunities.

Can you tell us what your organization is doing specifically in the mining sector—I am from Sudbury—to grow the representation of indigenous workers in Ontario, who are presently under-represented in the skilled and Red Seal trades, and what you need from government and legislators to create those opportunities?

[Lionel Railton]

Well, one of the other proud legacies that we point to is that we believe we're playing a very important role on reconciliation. How are we doing that? We're taking those workers....

Listen, the indigenous communities, as most of us would know, are the fastest-growing and youngest population in Canada, and we need those workers, so what are we doing? We're approaching the various different communities and explaining to them the opportunities in the construction sector and the mining sector as to the skill sets they would require.

We are doing two things. One is that we are bringing mobile training directly to their communities, which will give them the necessary life skills that will allow them to work outside of their communities, as a lot of them don't have them, and the other piece of it is that we're upskilling them, once they have the basic life skills, to actually have a meaningful career in the mining sector or the construction sector. We're well advanced in that area.

In my particular case, I can point to an example in Manitoba. Over 40 years of hydro generation and construction of the hydro fleet in Manitoba, my membership in Manitoba now is represented by 40% Métis and indigenous members who openly identify themselves. Forty per cent of my membership in Manitoba is a direct result of some of these applications that we've applied over a long period of time, and they are from those indigenous communities. We're very proud of that legacy as well.

[Viviane LaPointe, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

How much time do I have left, Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

You have a minute.

Is there anybody else?

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

I'll go.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

We'll stop there.

Next we'll go to Mr. Simard for two and a half minutes.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

Thank you.

My question is for Mr. Bolduc or Mr. Rondeau.

In your opening statement, you talked about the importance of a holistic approach, saying that the government may be moving in the wrong direction by focusing solely on the energy sector.

That reminded me of a reality that is specific to my region, the aluminum sector, in particular. I'm not sure whether you know, but we will soon be producing carbon neutral aluminum using inert anodes. It's project ELYSIS. We know that what generates jobs in the aluminum sector is the need to change anodes frequently. A good chunk of the jobs revolve around that.

One of the things that worries us is the fact that the federal and provincial governments are making major investments in project ELYSIS but providing no guarantees when it comes to jobs.

That makes me wonder whether the FTQ has identified any sectors where the transition will be similar—in other words, they will receive government support but no assurances that jobs will be protected. I'm not sure whether the FTQ has examined that.

[Patrick Rondeau]

Yes, absolutely. Thank you for your question.

Aluminum production is an excellent example of a sector that requires a holistic approach. The inert anodes you mentioned have to be produced. They do indeed last longer, so jobs will be lost. That's why direct distribution channels are important, meaning that anode production plants should be built close to aluminum smelters. That is just one of many examples of how jobs and skills can be transferred.

We anticipate that oil and gas will be the most impacted sector in the near future, but there are others, including steel plants, cement plants and plastics. Those are all industries currently on our radar, and we are working with our unions in those workplaces. The FTQ is setting up pilot projects in co‑operation with employers to find solutions and build the road map for a just transition within those workplaces. It does exist, then.

The European Union is also home to some great initiatives. The United Kingdom, for instance, carried out prospective studies on climate change impacts by industrial area, not by industry. Neither Quebec nor Canada has similar data; if we did, we could plan for the impacts and adapt accordingly. That's another initiative we'd like to see implemented.

The mandate letters of the Minister of Natural Resources, the Minister of Labour and the Minister of Employment, Workforce Development and Disability Inclusion all mention the just transition. Under the approach being advocated, the processes and measures would apply to an industry as a whole, but history has shown us that one size fits all isn't the way to go. Each sector of employment will need its own tailored plan.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Regrettably, we're out of time.

We're going to Mr. Angus for his final two and a half minutes.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you.

I remember that when we lost all of the silver mining jobs in my community, I went to the retraining centre to visit a friend who was a highly skilled miner. There were 30 guys all playing solitaire on a computer. I asked them what they were doing, and he said, “This is how we get trained to be entrepreneurs.” If you study the reports, everyone will pat themselves on the back and say that was a good just transition, but that's how it goes down in real life.

Ms. Sairanen, I want to ask you about the issue.

We talk about people and we talk about transition, but we need a worker transition that has a worker focus with organized labour's presence. There's a need to have training, bridging for pensions and funding for relocation written in and guaranteed for people who have to move. Could you speak to the need to have that presence of labour at the table?

[Sari Sairanen]

Absolutely. Thanks very much.

We're actually going through that today at one of our auto plants in Ingersoll, Ontario. The General Motors CAMI plant is shutting down. The last of the internal combustion engine vehicles that are being built are just coming off the assembly line. They will be shutting down the factory as they retool it, and once it reopens, hopefully by the end of this year, we'll have our first electric vehicles rolling off the assembly line.

How do you prepare the workers for that? There are going to be different skill sets they are going to need as they retool. As well, not all of the workforce is going to be needed. You're going to have to have a clear plan and be honest with the community and the workforce on who is needed. How do you ensure that the ones who are able to or want to retire have monies available to them, or that there's bridging if it needs to take place, as well as ensuring any new skills that will be needed? The collective agreement has to have that kind of language. It is a bipartite agreement that needs to take place.

It's not just those direct jobs. The parts plants are also being affected. You're not going to need all of the parts an internal combustion engine would need. Electric vehicles will need fewer internal parts. They're being affected as well. It's working with those community members, employers and workers as well. It's having that holistic view of how that change is happening.

These are ongoing discussions that take place. You don't do it at the eleventh hour. You build for it and you plan for it so that everyone knows what is coming down the pipeline, so to speak. It is either that blueprint or a road map. Everyone has a right to know how their livelihood is being affected, and then make those appropriate changes. If needed, have government involved with monies to ensure there is a fair and just transition that takes place and that those communities are looked after.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Thank you.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Chair, I know my time has run out, but can I ask about getting some written recommendations? We have lost an hour.