Natural Resources Committee on May 9th, 2022

[Greg McLean, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Ms. Smith, I'll ask you one final question.

I agree with you. There is heat loss in internal combustion engines. Can you tell me what the phase transition is like from electricity to heat?

[Merran Smith]

I want to go back to your question about electricity bills, because—

[Greg McLean, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Ms. Smith, I asked you a question about the power loss in phase transition from electricity to heat.

[Merran Smith]

I can tell you that in fossil fuel electricity production or in vehicles, as you're well aware, there's a significant amount. More energy is lost through heat than is put into the work. If you're talking about that phase transition, it's far more efficient to —

[Greg McLean, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

No, I'm talking about the phase transition where you switch from a current power source, if you will, to a heat power source. Electricity requires a phase transition, which means you need twice as much power from electricity to heat the same room. Are you aware of that?

[Merran Smith]

What I'm well aware of is that your energy bills will go down. This is proven out by extensive modelling by agencies such as the International Energy Agency as well as modelling done here in Canada by Climate Choices and by ourselves.

I'll send Dan a copy of the paper we've produced about vehicles and how your energy costs, your overall costs of running a vehicle, will be lower.

Interestingly, I think people need to look at the costs of electric vehicles now, today, in 2022, and how they have dropped and how this is now more affordable. It wasn't this way even two, five or 10 years ago. Renewable energy costs—

[Greg McLean, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

The batteries have just gone up by thousands of dollars.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

We're out of time. In fact, we're slightly over time on the five minutes.

Now I'm going to jump to Ms. Dabrusin to finish our last five minutes here.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

Thank you.

I've been finding all of these exchanges fascinating. I would love to go to the Angus-McTeague family dinners. It would be really fascinating.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

We'll invite you.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

Thank you.

Just because there's been a whole lot of conversation about the price of gas, I was looking at the global petrol prices and the graphs. What's fascinating is that they're all kind of the same. When you look at them, you see that they kind of just shoot up over the past few months, across the world. It's kind of a fascinating thing. I'll just point out that, even in the U.K., they're looking at over two dollars per litre right now. It seems to be a bit of a worldwide phenomenon from what my quick little bit of research is showing.

Ms. Smith, before I go further, you were going to answer a question or you wanted to say something a few minutes ago, and it seemed like you'd been cut off. I wanted to give you a minute if you want to finish that thought.

[Merran Smith]

Sure. I just wanted to be really clear to the members here that I did say that electricity bills will go up, because you'll be using more electricity in a lower-carbon world as we move to 2030, but your overall energy costs—and that's what matters to the pocketbook—will go down.

Yes, the costs of these new technologies have dropped significantly over the last decade, and for some of them, such as solar, as much as 90%. We do, as a nation, need to ensure to everybody that this is an equitable energy transition and that we support lower-income Canadians with certain measures so that they can actually come into these new technologies.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

Because there's been conversation about the types of things we're talking about.... I believe you mentioned that some of the jobs that would be created going forward are in the area of building retrofits, since buildings are a large source of emissions. When we're looking at that, wouldn't retrofits to a person's home, buildings or workplaces reduce energy costs?

[Merran Smith]

Yes, that's precisely it. We need to be more efficient with our entire economy. It's building so that families will have better homes and lower energy costs. It's also industry and having greater efficiency in our industries. I think we're seeing that.

I want to say again that this lower-carbon, decarbonized world, with cleaner energy and low-carbon products is where the world is going. Canada has huge opportunities for jobs—I've outlined many—in batteries, clean electricity and producing low-carbon products. We need to ensure that the workers are transitioned into these new roles and they're good-paying jobs. We've heard a lot about that from some of our colleagues here.

As we go through this transition, we need to support all Canadians on the way. Ultimately—and we'll look at the science of burning gas versus electricity—it's a far more efficient approach to an economy and to household expenses.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

Thank you.

I have only a couple more minutes left.

Ms. Da Silva, I was really fascinated when you were talking about bringing in the whole community when we're looking at it, because there's been a lot of conversation about individuals. Can you go a bit further? What does a community approach look like when we're talking about building toward a new community and new opportunities?

[Luisa Da Silva]

It's so important to bring the entire community in, because you need to have everybody's voices. It's not going to be a singular person who is transitioning. This energy transition is going to bring everybody along, and it is going to happen.

If I can make one point, in my organization, we work with a lot of remote and indigenous communities, and I've heard some people say today that Canada has had cheap, affordable energy. Perhaps it has, if you've been living in metropolitan areas, but I speak with people who live on reserves and they pay $500 to $700 a month for electricity. It's mad how much they pay. Energy cannot be considered cheap and affordable when a quarter of your pay is going toward electricity.

Things like this are why it's necessary to bring the entire community along, because it affects everybody. If you're putting up a solar farm or wind turbines, you're having a geothermal plant or you're doing heat pumps or retrofits.... Retrofits are so important, especially on remote communities, because they live in insufficient housing. These houses already need more energy to heat up, cool down and just to run.

It is a community problem. Perhaps we don't see that because we don't live in these kinds of communities, but it is a community problem.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

With that, folks, we're out of time.

I really would like to thank all of the witnesses for being here with us today. Your testimony has been very helpful, even with some of the exciting exchanges. We have some really good information, and I appreciate the information you provided that will help inform our report, which we're hoping to get done before the end of the session.

I'm hoping the members will indulge me. We have the resources available to us for five minutes, and I have three quick things I'd like to try to address.

We can let the witnesses go now, with a huge “thank you” for your support.

The first item I wanted to share with the committee members is to Charlie's point. We have the Canadian Labour Congress scheduled to appear on May 16, so they are on the list.

The second thing is that a few people had requested to attend the Prospectors & Developers Association of Canada's mineral exploration and mining convention. Today is the deadline for us to approve anyone attending, and it has to be submitted by tomorrow to be approved at the Liaison Committee by Friday.

We haven't had a chance to canvass all of the committee members. We've developed a budget for the full committee to go, and that was circulated to people during question period today. You should have had a chance to look at it. I'm wondering if I can get somebody to move this and then we'll vote on putting it forward. We will then canvass people, and we can always reduce it. It's easier to do that, as opposed to doing a smaller budget and approving it upward.

Go ahead, Charlie.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Traditionally, Monday night is northern Ontario night at Steam Whistle brewery. It is the best party on the planet. If we are going, we have to go on the Monday, and you have to get us tickets. They're very hard to get.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Do I take that as a motion to approve the..?

Is there any discussion on this one?

Go ahead, Larry.

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

Just for clarity, then, you're looking at putting in a larger number and we'll determine later.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Yes.

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

Sure. Go ahead.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

We'll send a note off this week to see who would actually be involved. When I go to Liaison Committee on Friday, if we have a revised number, I can downscale it. For today, let's put in for the full amount that was circulated.