Natural Resources Committee on May 16th, 2022

[Monique Pauzé]

I'm sorry for interrupting you. We agree on that.

A representative of the FTQ, who appeared before the committee at a previous meeting, spoke about the commission the Scottish government had put in place to ensure a just transition. It was to provide advice, transition plans and appropriate approaches. There was even a process of accountability to Parliament.

Could this be a good approach for Canada?

[Larry Rousseau]

Yes, that could definitely be a good approach.

It is essential that the federal government take the bull by the horns and make it clear what the strategy will be to get there. I say this because we are dealing with national issues, but it applies equally to all the provinces.

[Monique Pauzé]

Thank you for your answers, Mr. Rousseau.

I have a question for Mr. Agnew, from the Canadian Colleges for a Resilient Recovery, who was saying that he needed funding from the federal government.

Mr. Agnew, you talked about appropriate training and the public funding needed to ensure a real economic recovery. When representatives from Oil Change International appeared before the Standing Committee on Natural Resources and the Standing Committee on Environment and Sustainable Development, they said that the federal government was investing 14 and a half times more money in oil companies than in renewable energy.

I'd like to hear your comments on that, since you need funding.

[David Agnew]

I don't have the context of the comment, but in general there is a lot of money out there, at least on paper, in terms of meeting the needs of workers for retraining and upskilling and so on. Part of what I was trying to say is that from our perspective, there could be better ways of getting it out by working in the communities across the country.

Obviously the federal government has an extraordinarily important role to play in terms of the funding, but the provinces have a very large role to play in, for instance, control of the post-secondary system and in working very closely with the federal government on skills development.

Of course, as we all know, many of these important decisions and needs are best met through local conversations, not ones that are held at a national or even a provincial level. They need to be local. That's where I think, as Denise had talked about, the—

[Monique Pauzé]

I have to interrupt you, Mr. Agnew. Indeed, in Quebec, we've had an agreement on workforce training since 1997.

Mr. Burt, you said in your presentation that people are afraid and that this was perhaps a barrier to the transition. So I understand there are myths and prejudices about the green economy. I'm tempted to tell you that there may also be prejudices that are conveyed by a number of elected officials.

What are the facts about the economy and the future of our jobs?

[Michael Burt]

Is the question where we'll have job creation going forward?

[Monique Pauzé]

I just want the truth.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

I'll say be very quick. I'll give you 10 seconds or so. We're out of time on this one.

[Michael Burt]

Fair enough.

Broadly, yes, there will be job creation. We'll see it in every region of the country. We'll see it in a variety of different sectors. It's really driven by the investments that the businesses are undertaking to create those jobs.

Sorry; it's a really broad question.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Thank you.

Sorry, Mr. Burt, you seem to be getting the tail end of the question period.

We'll go now to Mr. Angus. Mr. Angus, you have six minutes.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you, and thanks to all our witnesses.

Mr. Rousseau, I want to start with you.

Gil McGowan, from the Alberta Federation of Labour, came here and said the transition is under way and that workers are already living the transition. Is that the experience and the research that you're getting from the Canadian Labour Congress?

[Larry Rousseau]

Absolutely. We're in it now.

We have some catching up to do, and unfortunately too many workers right now are losing heart, feeling that they're getting left behind and that nobody is going to be there for them. This is of critical importance right now.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I think this is really important, because we've had Clean Energy Canada talking about new clean energy jobs in Canada being up 50%, to 639,200. We have research from Calgary Economic Development and Edmonton Global about the huge opportunities, but they have a big “but”: They say there has to be investment. We can't just have an accidental new economy; it has to be a created new economy.

What you've heard from witnesses today is that the government hasn't even done its research as to where these new jobs are going to be. What does that say to workers in the energy sector who are asking where we're going with this transition?

[Larry Rousseau]

That's a very good point.

I'm going to ask my colleague Tara Peel to come in, because she has something that I think we should share.

[Tara Peel, Political Assistant to the President, Canadian Labour Congress]

That is a good point. We're currently dealing with a significant trust deficit. People are fearful. What they really need is a plan. They need to see their unions at the table helping to negotiate that plan. There are a lot of things that a just transition can do, but for it to really be a just transition, workers, through their unions, employers and governments, need to sit down together and negotiate the plan. That is what will give people confidence.

What is the plan for where the new jobs are, and how do we make sure those new jobs are as good as or better than the jobs that we know will decline over time? Let's be honest: The people who are doing this work have good jobs. They are jobs that support their family and their community. With a plan that they see their unions have had a part in shaping, you can build some confidence and trust that there is a future for them in this net-zero economy. It's going to look different sector by sector. It's going to look different in different parts of the country in terms of timelines. Unless you have unions and employers at the table, working this out, it's probably not a just transition.

I will bring it back to that point.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

That's very helpful.

We had an excellent panel from Iron and Earth. They talked about the studies that are done and how workers are ready. They want alternatives and to look at this new economy, but they're saying, “Where is it?”

There's one thing I want to ask.

The Prime Minister went to COP26 and made a bunch of promises right after the environment commissioner pointed out that the government makes all kinds of promises and has failed to deliver on every single one of them. When Joe Biden was at COP26, the phrase he used all the time was that they were going to create good-paying jobs for American workers. That was the consistent line. When you hear the American Democrats talk about transition, they talk of good-paying jobs for American workers. I've never heard that from our government. I've never heard them say they're going to create good-paying union jobs for Canadian workers. They say we're going to meet our global obligations, and we're going to do this and that, but there isn't the sense that this is going to be a worker-centred drive. Without the workers at the heart of it, we are going to see resentment.

Can the CLC present us with recommendations that we need to look at to make sure that we are reassuring workers that the jobs that are being created are not going to be low-paying?

I heard some of my Liberal colleagues saying “Where are these new jobs you're talking about?” Either we're saying there are going to be better jobs, good jobs, or we're selling people a lie. How do we know that we can get this done? What can the CLC give us that we can look at in terms of recommendations?

[Larry Rousseau]

Quite a bit, my friend.

Tara, have we made our submission? Is it in?

We've made a submission to the committee. We can share that. We have—

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I would like it if there are a few key points that you can put on the record now for us.

[Larry Rousseau]

Go ahead, Tara.

[Tara Peel]

It is key to remember that a just transition will help us meet our climate goals, but in itself, it is a jobs plan. It is a plan to create good jobs, and that is going to take investments. There is no question about that.

The best way that we can ensure that people have good jobs that support their families and communities is for them to be unionized jobs, truthfully. We can use the levers that we have to ensure that when governments invest, they come with good job strings, such as saying that we're going to build this infrastructure with community benefits agreements and other really concrete measures that help lift the quality of those jobs.

Be clear that we want this just transition to do a lot of things, including being the key to unlocking the ambition we need to meet our climate targets. Ultimately, however, it's all about jobs.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Unfortunately, we're now out of time on that round.

The next round we have is two for five minutes, two for two and a half minutes and then two for five minutes.

Starting us off will be Mr. McLean. You have five minutes.

[Greg McLean, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Thank you very much to all the witnesses.

We always have this confusion when we're drafting these reports—and my colleagues will know this—because nobody comes up with definitions.

I'm going to ask Mr. Baldwin first of all. Can you please give me your definition of a just transition?

[Noel Baldwin]

I was going to defer to my colleague.

[Dr. Tricia Williams]

It's on you.