Evidence of meeting #4 for Natural Resources in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was cap.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Mark Jaccard  Professor, Simon Fraser University, As an Individual
Sara Hastings-Simon  Assistant Professor, University of Calgary, As an Individual
Colleen Collins  Vice-President, Canada West Foundation

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John Aldag

I call this meeting to order.

I'm going to go through my opening comments, and then I think we have a couple of points of order.

I'd like to welcome everyone to meeting number four of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Natural Resources.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), the committee is commencing its study of a greenhouse gas emissions cap for the oil and gas sector. Today will be the first of eight meetings with witnesses for this study.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of November 25, 2021. Members attending in person in the room, or remotely, can use the Zoom application. Please note the webcast will always show the person speaking, rather than the entire committee.

I'd like to take this opportunity to remind all participants that screenshots or taking photos of your screen are not permitted. Today's proceedings will be televised and made available via the House of Commons website.

Given the ongoing pandemic situation and in light of the recommendations from public health authorities, as well as the directive of the Board of Internal Economy on October 19, 2011, to remain healthy and safe, the following recommendations are made for all those attending the meeting in person.

Anyone with symptoms should participate by Zoom, and not attend the meeting in person. Everyone must maintain two-metre physical distancing, whether seated or standing. Non-medical masks are required to be worn in committee rooms, and may only be removed when members are seated in their place during the meeting, and are speaking. However, it is strongly recommended that members wear their masks at all times, including when seated. Non-medical masks are available in the room and provide better clarity than cloth masks for our interpreters ability to hear our interventions. Everyone present must maintain proper hand hygiene. There's hand sanitizer at the room entrance. The committee rooms are cleaned before and after each meeting. To maintain this, everyone is encouraged to clean surfaces, such as the desk, chair, and microphone with the provided disinfectant wipes when vacating or taking a seat.

As the chair, I will be enforcing these measures for the duration of the meeting, and I thank the members in advance for their co-operation.

To ensure an orderly meeting, I'd like to outline a few quick rules to follow.

Interpretation services are available for this meeting. You have the choice at the bottom of your screen of either the floor, English or French. Members and witnesses may speak in the official language of their choice. For those presenting today, our guest panellists, we always ask you speak slowly to allow our interpreters time to keep up with what you're saying. For the members in the room, if you wish to speak, please raise your hand. The clerk and I will do our best to keep track of the speaking order. For members on Zoom, please use the “raise hand” function and you'll be placed in order. As I'm sure you can all appreciate, it can sometimes be challenging when members raise their hands both in the room and on Zoom, so the clerk and I will manage the speaking order as best we can. We appreciate your patience and understanding in this regard.

Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name. If you're on Zoom, please click on the microphone icon to unmute yourself. For members in the room, your microphone will be controlled as usual by the proceedings and verification officer. When you're not speaking, your mike should be on mute. I remind you that all comments by members and witnesses should be addressed through the chair.

As I mentioned, today we'll begin our study of a greenhouse gas emissions cap for the oil and gas sector. We initially had the first panel, the Net-Zero Advisory Body, scheduled to be here with us from 3:30 p.m. to 4:30 p.m. I don't know if everybody was in the room when the clerk said there was a technical problem with one of the presenters. The presentation was designed to be in a copresentation format, so the Net-Zero Advisory Body requested being taken off today's schedule, which we've had to accommodate. We will not be hearing from the Net-Zero Advisory Body today. We will be moving the second panel up to 3:30 p.m., ending at 4:30 p.m., when I'm hoping to move to our in camera subcommittee meeting at 4:30 p.m.

For our second panel, we had invited Simon Langlois-Bertrand, but he is ill today. We will try to get Simon brought in at a future panel. There's been lots of shuffling of the schedule today, and I appreciate everyone's flexibility.

When we get started, once I hear the points of order that have been raised, we'll be moving to Sara Hastings-Simon, assistant professor, University of Calgary, who is testifying as an individual. I think Mark Jaccard, professor, Simon Fraser University, will also be joining us. We will also have, from the Canada West Foundation, Colleen Collins, vice-president.

Before we get into opening statements, Ms. Rempel Garner, I see you have your hand up.

Just before I go to you, I also want to welcome Ms. Goodridge to the committee as a substitute member for today. Mr. Morrice is joining us. We have Mr. Rogers, who is also acting as a substitute. That is our committee for today.

Ms. Rempel Garner, I will now go over to you.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

I'm curious as to when you found out about these issues. We're essentially wasting an hour of a committee meeting, and I don't believe that you sent out a notice for a change in the agenda. That violates my privilege a little bit. We put a considerable amount of effort into preparing for these meetings, and to have them changed without notice at the last minute isn't acceptable, really.

I don't know why, when the technical issues came up, they weren't dealt with well in advance of this meeting and whether it was in the notice of a change of agenda. We can't run the committee this way.

I know things happen. I know people get COVID. But we're not doing our diligence as committee members here if this [Technical difficulty—Editor].

I'd like to give you an opportunity to explain what's happened and how you plan to rectify this in the future, or if this is something that we're going to have to address through formal motions.

I want to thank the witnesses who are on the panel right now, but at the same time, we came prepared for the Net-Zero Advisory Body. We had no heads-up that this was a change.

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John Aldag

If I could speak to that—

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB

I don't know if we're going to have another meeting in the future. Now we've moved our committee meetings forward, many times. It's problematic.

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John Aldag

Perhaps I could speak to that before I go to Mr. Angus.

I was informed by the clerk at 2:54 that she was doing the audio checks with the Net-Zero panel participants. One of the members had poor Internet. He did not have the headset with him that had been sent from the House of Commons, which, as everyone knows, is required for participating via Zoom for interpretation purposes. This was during question period that I was notified. This is why we were doing the tech checks in advance. But one person was not able to get his technology working. At about three o'clock we did everything we could to see if there were alternate arrangements. He ended up having to decline.

We pushed hard to see if the second panellist would come. I have a text, during question period, showing that I asking the clerk if we could coax, cajole or otherwise encourage the remaining panellists from Net-Zero to still be here so that we wouldn't lose this panel. They declined. It was a hard no. They said they needed to appear as a team. It had been planned that way.

At that point, I asked the clerk to see if our second panel would be flexible in their time and move up to 3:30 so that we wouldn't lose the first hour. I had asked if we could keep going back to the Net-Zero panel to see if they could get their tech problems worked out by 4:30, with the hope that we might be able to bring them in after our first panel.

At this point they have not been able to resolve those issues, and that's where we are right now.

That's the explanation I can offer on that.

I will go to Mr. Angus for a point of order, and then Ms. Rempel Garner, I'll come back to you.

3:40 p.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I don't want to belabour the point, and I'm sorry that our second-round panellists are having to listen to this, but I want to thank them for their willingness to step up in the breach while we've been caught out.

I certainly have enormous respect for the work of the clerk and you, Chair. I think my frustration is this. If we're going to be looking at this issue, the Net-Zero Advisory Body, to me, is the foundation. What we hear from them, we then work out elsewhere.

As for having them possibly come at 4:30, at this point I see the day as being lost with them. I want an assurance—and I'm sure I'm going to get it—that as soon as possible, you will give us the date, and it has to be a hard date. It's very difficult for me to do my work and know what questions to ask without knowing the parameters of how they are proceeding, because they are the key element, I think, to a lot of this study.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John Aldag

I agree with you absolutely. That's why we had designed the panel to have the Net-Zero Advisory Body be the first witness at the start of the study. The testimony that we're hoping to hear from them will be critical to how the panel unfolds.

Like I say, it was a very unfortunate situation, and now that we know there were tech issues, we will be working with them to see how quickly we can get them back and make sure that we do everything to resolve those issues in advance. We will also make sure that the headset that was sent out is in hand for when we are able to reschedule them, which will be sooner, rather than later. We can always talk at the subcommittee, if that's the appropriate place, to determine if we want to look at revisiting the schedule that's been set for this study to make sure we get the adequate testimony.

I'm working off of two sets of notes.

For anyone watching us today, I want to also mention that we are trying to get as many witnesses as we can to this study. It is a very important one, but we're not going to be able to accommodate everybody out there. There may be people who feel they have something to contribute, so I wanted to say that anyone is able to make up to a 10-page submission to our committee on this study, which they can send by email to RNNR@parl.gc.ca. I'll ask the clerk to have this available on the website so that we are able to try to add as much valuable testimony as we can to this study.

Mr. Angus, I don't know if that answers your question or addresses your concern, but that's where we are.

Mrs. Rempel Garner, we're back to you for a point of order.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB

Thank you, Chair.

I'd like to echo Mr. Angus's thanks to the witnesses for making themselves available. I would also like to echo Mr. Angus's concerns, because a lot of the questions that I had for the second panel were predicated on question lines that we had set up for the Net-Zero Advisory Body.

For clarification, you asked the remaining members of the Net-Zero Advisory Body to appear this afternoon and they declined.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John Aldag

That's correct. The explanation that we were given was that their presentation was set up as a copresentation, and the one remaining panellist with the working technology was uncomfortable going alone.

I didn't have that conversation. I was in question period, but the clerk had this conversation and it was a hard no—that is how it was put to us—and the person would not appear alone today. That's what we're left dealing with.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB

Thank you, Chair.

With that, I would move:

That the committee re-invite the Net-Zero Advisory Board to appear for one hour this week.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John Aldag

I would say that we could go through the formal motion process if we need to. This was on a point of order and we're moving into something beyond, but I'm more than willing to work with the clerk and our committee to extend that offer and to see if we can get the issue worked out. The commitment remains to try to get them here as quickly as possible and to give as much notice in advance to the committee so that you can be prepared for your rounds of questions.

I have two people in the room who are ahead of Mr. Maloney and Mr. Angus, so I'll hear them.

We have witnesses who have rearranged their schedules to be here with us, and I would love to get to them as soon as we can, out of respect for their time. We have time when we could carry on with this conversation, but after we hear the panellists, so we're not taking up their entire afternoon.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB

Chair, I didn't move the motion on a point of order. You recognized me to speak without a point of order being raised, so it is valid and I would like the purpose.... I would argue that it's in order because it is very pertinent to the matter at hand.

To me, this isn't about politics. What the Net-Zero Advisory Body is going to present to this committee is going to set the foundation for other witness appearances. Many other witnesses I know are waiting to see what they have to say, as well as what our question lines are.

My purpose in moving this is to have the committee endorse you to go and ask them to come back this week to work with the House of Commons to ensure that there are resources available. If they're coming at the [Technical difficulty—Editor] problematic.

I would like to have it on the record that the committee moved that you are going to try to get them here this week for an hour so that we can prepare accordingly. That would be my argument for my motion, Chair.

I hope that we can dispense with it quickly. It still gives you flexibility to work with them, but we need that timing this week.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John Aldag

I'm trying to be flexible. I thought I said at the beginning I would hear the points of order before we moved into the study, so if it's a technicality I've been caught on by not saying that at the beginning every time I acknowledge a person, then I apologize and we've probably been caught on this.

I will entertain your motion right now. If you'd like to make it, we'll go through that process as quickly as we can, and then come to the other points of order in the room and on the screen that have been moved.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB

Thank you.

I have made the motion and I've made it technically correct by moving it in committee. I would like us to vote on it. It seems pretty straightforward. We would reinvite them this week and find an hour for us to have them here as a panel so the rest of our deliberations aren't set back because of their inability to appear today.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John Aldag

Is there a seconder?

Mr. Maguire.

Is there any debate on the motion?

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB

We don't need a seconder, by the way.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John Aldag

Okay. I'm trying to work with two clerks here to make sure we're not caught again on a procedural issue.

February 7th, 2022 / 3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Maguire Conservative Brandon—Souris, MB

Can I make a point about this, Mr. Chair?

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John Aldag

Yes, Mr. Maguire.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Maguire Conservative Brandon—Souris, MB

It's not really debate; it's just backing up what's been asked for.

It's great that there are folks from the Canada West Foundation. I applaud them for doing the yeoman's work here stepping up to be witnesses today, but I felt that the Net-Zero Advisory Body was the key to the whole thing, to set the stage for what we're going to be talking about with all witnesses down the road. That's why I would have liked to have them and was glad to see they were the first witnesses on the committee. Therefore, I would also look at.... We'll hear the Canada West Foundation today and we'll have great questions, answers and dialogue with them, I'm sure, but in the event we feel that there's something missed or that they wanted to have something more to say, I would suggest we also include the opportunity to have them come back as a witness, if anyone on the committee felt it necessary, so we could perhaps cover something that might have been missed that the advisory body is going to bring up later.

Thank you.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

James Maloney Liberal Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON

Mr. Chair.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John Aldag

Just a moment Mr. Maloney, Monsieur Simard and Mr. Angus.

We're entertaining the motion. What Mr. Maguire has put out has essentially been an amendment to the motion. I have other people who want to make an intervention, so I'll move through those to see if it relates to the motion that has been made.

For clarification, are you moving an amendment to Ms. Rempel Garner's motion?

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Maguire Conservative Brandon—Souris, MB

If it is acceptable; otherwise, it's just a suggestion on my behalf.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John Aldag

We have the amendment.

Now I have Mr. Maloney, Monsieur Simard and Mr. Angus.

Mr. Maloney.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

James Maloney Liberal Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON

Mr. Chair, it seems we're spending a lot of time agreeing on this. As I understand it, everyone on this committee wants them to be here, feels they need to be here, and it sounds like they want to be here and only are not here because of a technical problem. As fascinating as this discussion is, I think we could all agree to dispense with the motion and that we will get them here as soon as possible, recognizing that there's increased demand and pressure on translators and whatnot.

I'm agreeing with you, Ms. Rempel Garner. I just don't want to be in a position where we've having a similar discussion on Thursday with other witnesses if for some technical reason we can't get them here before then. That's all. I think we're all on the same page here. It's unfortunate they couldn't be here right now. If there's a way to accommodate that without further delaying these witnesses or other witnesses, then I think we should find it. Perhaps Mr. Maguire has hit the nail on the head.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.