Evidence of meeting #40 for Natural Resources in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was finance.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Daniel Dufour  Director General, Innovation Branch, Department of Natural Resources
Shannon Glenn  Assistant Vice-President, Government Relations, Business Development Bank of Canada
Elizabeth Wademan  Chief Executive Officer, Canada Development Investment Corporation
Samuel Millar  Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Economic Development Branch, Department of Finance
Jesse Fleming  Director General, Programs Directorate, Department of the Environment
Todd Winterhalt  Senior Vice-President, Marketing, Communications and Corporate Strategy Officer, Export Development Canada
Miodrag Jovanovic  Assistant Deputy Minister, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance
Marie-Josée Lambert  Acting Director General, Crown Investment and Asset Management, Department of Finance

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John Aldag

Welcome to meeting number 40 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Natural Resources. Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), the committee is meeting to hear from witnesses on the study of federal assistance for various natural resources industries.

Today’s meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of June 23, 2022.

Taking screenshots or photos now that we're in session is not allowed.

I have a few comments for witnesses and members because we have a number of departmental officials here today.

Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. For those participating by video conference, click on the microphone icon to activate your mike, and please mute yourself when you are not speaking.

Regarding interpretation, those on Zoom have the choice, at the bottom of their screens, of floor, English or French. Those in the room can use.... We don't have anybody in the room other than members, so we're good there.

All comments should be addressed through the chair.

In accordance with our routine motion, I am informing the committee that all witnesses have completed the required connection tests in advance of our meeting today.

Charlie, I'll go to you. Then we'll go into the introduction of our witnesses and then to opening statements.

Is this a point of order?

3:35 p.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

Yes. Thank you so much, Mr. Chair.

I noticed on the witness list that was passed out that the Canada Energy Regulator is not participating. Is it because they were unable to come today? Are we able to have them rescheduled for one of the subsequent meetings?

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John Aldag

I was going to get to that when I introduced the witnesses. It's a good question. I did speak to Mr. Simard about it.

The issue is that the executive team for the Canada Energy Regulator are all sick, including some who are apparently in quite bad shape. We reached out and reserved a spot for a week from Thursday. They said they have found people who they hope will be able to participate on this Thursday's panel, but that will be confirmed when the notice for the Thursday meeting goes out, probably later today or tomorrow. They will be appearing. It was supposed to be today, but now we're hoping to get them with the agencies, so we should be hearing from them as early as this Thursday.

We do have appearing today representatives from the Department of Natural Resources, the Business Development Bank of Canada, the Canada Development Investment Corporation, the Department of Finance, the Department of the Environment, and Export Development Canada.

What we'll do now is go into five-minute opening statements from each of the departments. Then, once we're done the opening statements, we'll get into our rounds of questions, starting with six-minute rounds for each of the parties.

I believe Mr. Dufour from the Department of Natural Resources is going to speak first.

Mr. Dufour, I'll turn the floor over to you. You have five minutes.

3:35 p.m.

Daniel Dufour Director General, Innovation Branch, Department of Natural Resources

Good afternoon, Mr. Chair and dear members of the committee.

My name is Dan Dufour. I'm with Natural Resources Canada. It's a pleasure to be here this afternoon. I'm joined by two of my Natural Resources Canada colleagues, Nada Vrany and Monique Frison, as well as a number of other federal colleagues, to share our perspectives related to federal assistance for the natural resource industries.

I'm calling from Ottawa, located on the unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe peoples.

I'll happily touch on, in my brief remarks, how we advance the sustainability and competitiveness of our natural resource industries as part of the global transition to net-zero emissions by 2050. To achieve this goal, Natural Resources Canada is investing in sustainable energy, mining and forestry initiatives. We're ensuring a just transition by moving forward with comprehensive action, including legislation, to support workers across the country. We're also advancing economic reconciliation in partnership with indigenous peoples, communities and businesses by ensuring their meaningful participation in Canada's net-zero future.

Through the regional energy and resource tables, we are working with provinces and territories to identify and accelerate key economic opportunities towards the low-carbon economy. The government's recent investments in natural resource sectors contain numerous key tools that will enable such a strategy. We are investing nearly $4 billion in critical minerals to develop Canada's value chain, from expanding mining and processing of strategic minerals to manufacturing such products as batteries, EVs and solar panels. Through initiatives like the smart renewables and electrification pathways program, we're continuing to invest in clean energy expansion to green our grid and enhance generation capacity.

We also recognize nuclear energy to be an important non-emitting and reliable source of electricity. That is why budget 2022 includes close to $70 million to support activities to minimize waste generated from small modular reactors, to strengthen international nuclear co-operation agreements and to enhance domestic safety and security policies and practices.

What's more, we see hydrogen as a clean energy source central to meeting Canada's climate commitments. Budgets 2021 and 2022 included several important hydrogen investments, including funding for projects under the clean fuels fund and under the Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada net-zero accelerator. We also have a proposal to expand the Canada Infrastructure Bank's mandate to include hydrogen production, transportation and distribution. There are new incentives for zero-emission vehicle purchases, which will include hydrogen-powered vehicles, and new investor tax credits for CCUS and clean technologies.

Regarding the oil and gas sector, support has been designed to help the industry decarbonize. During the pandemic, the government introduced targeted funding and programs in this sector to keep Canadians working while addressing environmental objectives. This includes an investment of $1.7 billion to address inactive and orphan wells. Our support also includes a suite of initiatives to help Canada become the cleanest oil and gas producing country in the world. This includes an investment of $319 million in research, development and demonstration to advance CCUS technologies, as well as $1.5 billion to expand clean fuel production facilities.

The government also recognizes the challenges and growth opportunities in Canada's forest sector, which has received over $345 million since budget 2017 for innovation, market and product development, as well as economic development in indigenous communities across the country. Budget 2022 included an additional $380 million to address the increasing threat of wildland fires, and over $55 million to protect British Columbia's old-growth forests. Finally, the two billion trees program received a federal investment of $3.2 billion as part of the natural climate solutions fund.

Canada, as we know, operates in a global system. A number of the budget 2022 investments that I mentioned will support Canada's energy transition and climate initiatives, but we know that more is needed. NRCan continues to actively explore additional measures to maintain the competitiveness for Canada's natural resource industries on the global stage.

To conclude, transforming Canada's natural resource industries will take time, but the government is committed to positioning these sectors to advance our climate change commitments while building a cleaner, more inclusive and prosperous economy that works for everyone.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John Aldag

Thank you for your opening statement.

Mr. Dufour, you didn't need this because you were just under the five minutes, but for those presenting, I use a handy card system. When I hold up the yellow card, it signifies that you have 30 seconds left. When the red card goes up, you're out of time. However, don't stop mid-sentence. Just wind up your thoughts.

We'll now go to the Business Development Bank of Canada for their five-minute opening statement.

3:40 p.m.

Shannon Glenn Assistant Vice-President, Government Relations, Business Development Bank of Canada

Thank you, Mr. Chair and committee members, for the opportunity to be here. My name is Shannon Glenn, and I'm the AVP of government relations for the BDC.

The Business Development Bank of Canada, in operation for 75 years, needs no lengthy introduction. Keep in mind, however, that it's the only bank dedicated exclusively to entrepreneurs.

We are a Crown corporation, reporting to Parliament through the Minister of International Trade, Export Promotion, Small Business and Economic Development.

We operate as a lender and investor at arm's length from the government. In this way, we complement private sector lenders, rather than competing with them. It means we take more risks than other financial institutions and, when the economy weakens, we intervene. During the pandemic, for example, we provided $2.8 billion in direct financial support, and $4.5 billion in indirect support, by working with financial institutions throughout the country.

We also offer venture capital and advisory services.

In relation to the committee's interest in our support for natural resources, let me make a few comments.

I would first highlight that our mandate is economy-wide and across Canada's geography. We offer solutions on commercial terms, meaning that we price for risk and do not undercut the private sector. We do not offer subsidies. The uptake for our offering is demand-driven rather than on an allocation basis.

Given our focus on entrepreneurs and debt, the uptake for our support in a given resource industry is typically not from the resource sector itself but from the SME ecosystem around the sector. A clear example of this is the mining industry, where our lending last year was limited to one loan of $75,000 and where our portfolio stands at $2.7 million. Our typical focus in this sector is quarrying. We do not have any coal mines in our portfolio. That said, we support the SME industry that serves the mining industry. We did a $7.3-million authorization last year, and the portfolio stands at $46 million as of the end of the last fiscal year.

Similarly, for oil and gas, BDC's lending to Canadian mid-sized oil and gas producers was about $500 million last year and represents about 1% of our portfolio, primarily through participating in syndicated transactions with Canadian banks in keeping with our complementary mandate. Of that, BDC provided $415 million in participations toward $5 billion in syndicated commitments from Canadian FIs, so a leverage ratio of close to 10:1. We also provide financing to oil and gas service providers. We had a strong year, with $244 million authorized in the last fiscal year, and the portfolio stands at $804 million.

As a responsible lender, BDC's ongoing involvement is a leading driver of ESG due diligence integration in oil and gas lending practices, influencing producers toward energy diversification and enhanced GHG transparency. As an existing lender, BDC is well positioned to provide additional support as producers progress their energy transition strategies, investing in emissions reduction and clean technology to deliver low-carbon energy solutions. This approach also favours energy safety and security, especially in light of recent geopolitical developments.

On softwood lumber, we authorized $168 million last year. The portfolio increased from $525 million in 2018 to $727 million in 2022, mainly driven by sawmills.

On clean tech, we launched a $600-million fund in 2018 to address the lack of risk capital in the commercialization and scale-up of Canada's clean-tech industry. Since that fund is now fully committed, we announced just last week our new $400-million climate tech fund II to continue to invest in Canadian clean-tech firms.

I would like to close by highlighting some key challenges across sectors that are also relevant to the resource sector. They are labour shortages and supply chain issues.

We recently released a labour shortage study that concluded that labour shortages are here to stay, especially in light of the expected demand for workers. BDC's solutions advisory, productivity tool and digital adoption can definitely help in that regard.

My last comment is on the supply chain. Supply chain delays and disruptions are impacting the operations of many companies, including in the resource sectors, though that is starting to normalize. We introduced a supply chain loan to help address current market gaps, and I'd be happy to answer questions on that offering as well.

Thank you very much for your attention. I hope this lays a frame for a fruitful discussion.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John Aldag

Thank you for those opening comments.

I will move now to the representative for the Canada Development Investment Corporation.

3:45 p.m.

Elizabeth Wademan Chief Executive Officer, Canada Development Investment Corporation

Good afternoon. I'm pleased to be joining you today at the natural resources committee.

My name is Elizabeth Wademan, and I'm the CEO of the Canada Development Investment Corporation, or CDEV. I joined CDEV and became its president and CEO fairly recently, earlier this year in March 2022.

CDEV is a Crown corporation that reports to Parliament through the Minister of Finance. CDEV's primary mandate is to serve as a vehicle for government equity investment and to manage the commercial holdings of the government.

We carry out our activities and operate in a commercial manner. CDEV has a portfolio of subsidiaries that includes Trans Mountain Corporation, which was responsible for the Trans Mountain pipeline and for completing the Trans Mountain expansion project.

I would be pleased to answer your questions today. Thank you.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John Aldag

Thank you.

Just so everybody knows, I believe the panel members have all decided the order here, so I'm going with the order I've been given.

The Department of Finance is next. I have three panellists, and I'm not sure who is doing the opening statement. Is it Mr. Millar?

3:45 p.m.

Samuel Millar Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Economic Development Branch, Department of Finance

Thank you, Chair, and good afternoon. Yes, I will be providing the opening comments on behalf of my other colleagues from the department.

I'm pleased to join you as part of the committee study on federal support for different natural resources sectors.

My name is Samuel Millar, and I'm the Associate Assistant Deputy Minister of the Economic Development Branch in the Department of Finance Canada.

Before I share some information on our role within the economic development branch, I want to acknowledge that I'm joined by some colleagues: from the tax policy branch, Miodrag Jovanovic, and from the Crown investment and asset branch, Marie-Josée Lambert. Our three branches have an active role in providing budget advice to the Minister of Finance on matters related to fiscal and economic policy for a number of sectors across the economy, including the natural resources sector.

In the economic development branch, we support the Minister of Finance with advice on funding decisions for all domestic economic departments, including Natural Resources Canada, Environment and Climate Change Canada and the Department of National Defence. In this capacity, we play a challenge function role on funding proposals for ministers from those departments. However, since the Minister of Finance is really the lead on implementing such programs, we rarely administer funding and measures, with only a few exceptions. Other departments and agencies are the lead implementers, following government funding decisions and parliamentary approval.

I know we have some colleagues from those departments. You've already heard from Monsieur Dufour, and you will be hearing from Mr. Fleming. They represent a couple of the departments that regularly implement programs in those sectors.

That being said, environmental—

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John Aldag

I'm sorry, but I have to interrupt for a second, Mr. Millar. I've noticed that it looks like a vote has been called, so I'm going to stop the clock. You have three and a half minutes left.

For us to continue, I need unanimous consent from the committee. I'm hearing no, so we're going to have to suspend until after the vote.

Members, obviously if you want to go to the chamber to vote, you're welcome to do that. Once the vote results are called, you have 10 minutes to get back for us to resume. We have two hours of time today or up until six o'clock, so we'll try to get through as many rounds as we can. If we need to go to six o'clock because of this disruption and have the two hours, we'll be able to do that.

We'll get back to you, Mr. Millar, when we resume. I hope everybody can stay with us until the vote is completed.

For now, we are suspended.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John Aldag

Welcome back, everyone.

We'll get right back into it with Mr. Millar, who has three and a half minutes left in his opening statement.

If you are ready to go, Mr. Millar, we'll start the clock as soon as you start speaking.

4:45 p.m.

Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Economic Development Branch, Department of Finance

Samuel Millar

Very well, Chair, and thank you. I'll recommence right where I left off.

Environmental and climate change considerations are key ingredients in many of the government's decision-making processes, including in its funding decisions. Such considerations are taken into account by departments and agencies when they develop funding requests, such as in relation to the annual budget. Indeed, it is mandatory by cabinet directive for each funding request submitted to the Minister of Finance to be accompanied by a strategic environmental assessment prepared by the lead department or agency.

In addition, since last year, the government has been piloting a climate lens to support funding in other decisions. This additional tool integrates enhanced climate analyses into the consideration of budget and cabinet proposals. At present, the pilot applies to proposals from seven departments, including Natural Resources Canada.

The Department of Finance is also responsible for advising the Minister of Finance on tax policy matters. While the primary role of the tax system is to raise revenue to finance government services, programs and transfers, it may also be used directly as an instrument to achieve economic and social objectives.

With respect to natural resources, over recent years, the tax system has been used to develop and deliver certain government policies aimed at facilitating Canada's transition to a net-zero economy. This includes the introduction of a new investment tax credit for carbon capture, utilization and storage, and a reduction of 50% in the federal tax rate on income derived from the manufacturing of certain net-zero technologies and clean energy production, as well as a new enhanced mineral exploration tax credit for critical minerals. More recently, the government announced the introduction of a new refundable investment tax credit for clean technologies, as well as its intention to consult on a carbon intensity-based approach to support the production of clean hydrogen.

These measures play an important role in supporting the transition to a net-zero economy while ensuring Canada remains competitive in attracting investment in key areas such as clean technologies and renewable energy.

That concludes our comments from the Department of Finance. We'd be pleased to take the committee's questions.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John Aldag

That's great. Thank you.

I want to apologize to all of our panellists for the disruption today. Thank you for staying with us.

We'll now move to our representative from Environment and Climate Change Canada.

If you're ready, I will start the clock for five minutes when you get started.

4:45 p.m.

Jesse Fleming Director General, Programs Directorate, Department of the Environment

Thank you for giving me the opportunity to be here today, Mr. Chair.

I also thank the members for your public service, including as part of your efforts on this committee.

My name is Jesse Fleming. I am the director general of the Programs Directorate in the Climate Change Branch of Environment and Climate Change Canada. My team and I are responsible for administering grant and contribution programming related to driving greenhouse gas emission reductions.

In that context, I would like to highlight two programs that may be of interest to this committee and for which natural resource industry stakeholders are potentially eligible for federal assistance.

The first program I'll highlight is the low-carbon economy fund, or LCEF, which was funded up to $2 billion as part of budget 2017. The low-carbon economy fund supports projects that help to reduce Canada's greenhouse gas emissions, generate clean growth, build resilient communities and create good jobs for Canadians. These projects are critical as Canada continues to build a sustainable net-zero emissions economy by 2050.

As announced in Canada's 2030 emissions reduction plan and budget 2022, the Government of Canada committed to expanding the low-carbon economy fund by investing an additional $2.2 billion over seven years, starting in 2022-23. The low-carbon economy fund invests in a wide range of recipients, including provinces and territories, businesses, municipalities, not-for-profits, and indigenous communities and organizations. Successful applicants leverage ingenuity across the country to reduce emissions in support of Canada's climate plans.

The second program I'd like to highlight is called the output-based pricing system, or OBPS, proceeds fund, which is funded from the proceeds of the federal output-based pricing system. The Government of Canada has committed to return proceeds collected from the output-based pricing system to the jurisdictions of origin as part of carbon pollution pricing efforts. Provinces and territories that have voluntarily adopted the output-based pricing system can opt for a direct transfer of proceeds collected.

Proceeds collected in other backstop jurisdictions, current or past, will be returned through two program streams. The decarbonization incentive program is a merit-based stream that incentivizes the long-term decarbonization of Canada's industrial sectors by supporting clean technology projects to reduce greenhouse gas emissions. Proceeds collected from most facilities regulated by the federal output-based pricing system will be returned via this stream. The second stream is called the future electricity fund, and it's designed to support clean electricity projects and/or programs. Proceeds collected from the output-based pricing system-covered electricity-generating facilities—utilities generally speaking—are expected to be returned through funding agreements with governments or third parties in relevant jurisdictions.

I'll end it there in the interest of leaving as much time as possible for questions and discussion.

Thank you again for the opportunity to be here today.

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John Aldag

That's great. Thank you for keeping your comments nice and tight. It's appreciated.

Last, we're going to hear from Export Development Canada.

When you're ready, I will start your five minutes. The floor is yours.

4:50 p.m.

Todd Winterhalt Senior Vice-President, Marketing, Communications and Corporate Strategy Officer, Export Development Canada

That's great. Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Good afternoon, honourable members, ladies and gentlemen. My name is Todd Winterhalt. I'm the senior vice-president and communications, marketing and corporate strategy officer at EDC. We're delighted to be here today to contribute to the committee's study of financial assistance for the natural resources sectors in Canada.

EDC is a Crown corporation and Canada's official credit agency. We're mandated to grow Canadian trade and develop global business opportunities. As a result, our focus is international. We have 21 offices around the world, including a full branch operating in Singapore. These offices, combined with an additional 21 locations across Canada, help to ensure that EDC meets its mandate of supporting Canadian companies seeking success in almost every market around the world, and that these companies come from every region across our country.

We also support Canadian companies of all sizes, from the very small to multi-billion dollar corporations, using financing, equity, credit insurance, contract bonding, trade knowledge, global connections, products and services. Last year, in 2021, EDC served nearly 30,000 Canadian companies doing business in over 180 countries around the world.

As committee members may be aware, like our sister Crown corporation BDC, EDC does its operating on commercial terms. The funds we use for our export financing are drawn from our revenues. Consistent with this model, EDC does not provide grants or subsidies. In fact, throughout our history, EDC has consistently been profitable, which is both a point of pride within the organization and a reality we embrace, driven by our commercial mandate and the need to move at the speed of business.

In our 78-plus years of operation, EDC has helped facilitate more than $1.5 trillion of Canadian exports and international investment. Since our founding in 1944, EDC's business has also tended to reflect the size and nature of the Canadian economy. For much of our history, as natural resources drove Canada's economy, they also made up the majority of our lending and insurance portfolios.

Today, though, as the economy grows and diversifies, so does EDC, such that our current portfolio and activity reflect sectors as wide-ranging as the economy itself. It's perhaps also useful to understand that EDC solutions are almost always provided in coordination and partnership with the many financial institutions that back Canada's exporters. They're banks, co-ops and credit unions.

Because so much of this work is complementary to what banks do, EDC's business activity has a tendency to be counter-cyclical. That is, during economic downturns, when private capital gets tight, the demand for EDC's risk mitigation and financing products increases. I can quickly touch on a few examples.

As part of the team Canada response to the COVID-19 pandemic, EDC augmented efforts to support Canadian companies in the oil and gas sector. This commercial support delivered liquidity to businesses in exploration and production, as well as midstream operations in oil field service companies, to help with the sudden and severe contraction in market conditions caused by lockdowns.

In addition, over the past six years alone, EDC has taken part in similar efforts that go beyond our core business offerings to provide support for industries in Canada's natural resources sectors when it's been needed. For example, we provided help for the Canadian canola industry in 2019 and for aluminum and steel producers in 2018. We also stepped in for softwood lumber producers in 2017 and provided support for oil and gas in 2016 and 2018.

Under more typical circumstances, EDC continues to play a role in supporting Canada's natural resources and related sectors. We are currently engaged with more than 1,000 Canadian exporters in the forestry, mining, agriculture and energy sectors.

It is noteworthy, though, to point out that of these sectors, oil and gas is one in which EDC's involvement has trended downward. This is particularly true in our financing of international companies and projects in the fossil fuel industry. More specifically, in 2018, for example, we provided approximately $2.7 billion in direct financing to foreign-based companies in the sector. However, by July of this year, that number had decreased by over 85% to $395 million.

As part of our commitment to the Government of Canada's carbon reduction plans and our own commitment to achieve net zero by 2050, effective January 1 next year, EDC will no longer finance new international oil and gas projects. That said, one area that we will continue to invest in is our support of Canadian companies that provide products, services or technologies that help reduce the GHG footprint of these international companies.

Domestically, EDC continues to work with hundreds of companies, large and small, across the energy sector. Their expectation is that Canada's transition to a lower-carbon economy must be orderly, and that companies engaged in the transition will require significant capital to make the green investments that are needed.

In the same way we are working with industries across the sector, EDC believes we can play a significant role in helping oil and gas to make the transition to a lower-carbon Canadian economy. Certainly, Canada's natural resource sector is complex and dynamic, and over the course of Canada's history, the sector has played a key role in the economic growth and global influence of Canada as a producer of precious raw materials, food and energy, all much in demand the world over. This certainly remains the case today and will continue to be the case for years to come.

Over this time, our goal at EDC has remained the same: to help Canadian resource companies find international opportunities to grow their businesses, diversify their markets and find success that meets the highest standard for sustainable business. EDC remains excited to support Canada's natural resource industries and to help them build towards a productive and sustainable future.

Thank you again for the invitation to appear today.

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John Aldag

Thank you.

As we get ready to go into our first round of questions, which will be six minutes each, I neglected to welcome Mr. Schmale and Mr. Garneau to our committee today. It's good to see you here filling in. Thanks so much.

First we have Mrs. Stubbs for her six minutes of questioning.

For those who haven't been at a committee before—it's been a while—we'll allow the person questioning to direct their questions. If you have something to weigh in on, you can put your hand up, but I'll leave it to the person doing their line of questioning to decide where they're going to direct their questions.

Mrs. Stubbs, we'll go over to you. You have six minutes.

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

Shannon Stubbs Conservative Lakeland, AB

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses for being here today. It's certainly a large, wide-ranging and esteemed panel. Thanks for lending us your time.

Maybe I'll start with the representatives from Finance, but if anybody else wants to throw in on this, feel free to do so.

I'm wondering, for the purpose of clarity of language, if you can define the word “subsidy” for this committee.

November 15th, 2022 / 4:55 p.m.

Miodrag Jovanovic Assistant Deputy Minister, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance

I am Miodrag Jovanovic. I'm the assistant deputy minister, tax policy, at Finance.

One way to define that is to use the WTO definition of a subsidy, which generally means a financial assistance provided to a sector, or in the form of services.

I have a quote here. It “includes financial benefits provided to businesses or industries, including direct transfers, foregone revenue, transfer of risk, and provision of goods and services.” That is one way to approach the notion of a subsidy.

5 p.m.

Conservative

Shannon Stubbs Conservative Lakeland, AB

Can I just clarify that? Would the Department of Finance consider tax or fiscal measures, such as deductions, credits, accelerated capital cost allowances, flow-through share provisions and those kinds of measures, to be under what you would either formally or as a representative of the Department of Finance consider to be a subsidy?

5 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Miodrag Jovanovic

The way you phrased the question is a bit broad. You've included different types of expenditures there. I think you really have to look at the nature of the expenditure or the spending.

When you look at tax measures, for instance, a number of measures are just there to properly measure the amount of income subject to tax. It's what we call the “benchmark tax system”. Typically, a business is allowed to claim deductions for normal expenses, whether they're wages or depreciation of capital.

There are what we call “tax expenditure” provisions, which are really departures from the benchmark, and we tend to look at these differently because they are a departure from the benchmark. You mentioned flow-through shares, for instance. That is a departure. In this context, they would typically be seen more as a kind of subsidy or special assistance, if you will.

Just to go a bit beyond that on the flow-through shares, for instance, in the last budget we did announce the phase-out of the flow-through share for oil and gas and coal exploration.

5 p.m.

Conservative

Shannon Stubbs Conservative Lakeland, AB

Yes, I think sometimes in this conversation different proponents are talking past each other based exactly on this lack of clarity around the definition of what we mean when we say the word “subsidy”.

To Finance or Natural Resources—or both, whichever is appropriate—I am trying to get a sense, first of all, of the contribution to GDP and exports, broken down by sector, of oil, gas, quarrying, forestry, fishing, agriculture and hunting. If that's not possible right off the top of your heads, which seems eminently reasonable to me, could you please provide that to the committee in a written submission?

5 p.m.

Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Economic Development Branch, Department of Finance

Samuel Millar

Actually, that's probably something the Department of Finance could undertake.

Mr. Chair, we could come back to the committee in writing on that.

5 p.m.

Director General, Innovation Branch, Department of Natural Resources

Daniel Dufour

If I may, Chair, the Department of Finance actually has data that we can certainly follow up with in terms of unemployment, GDP and exports as they relate to the energy, forest, mineral and metal sectors. That data is available, absolutely, for 2021 and for earlier years as well.