Natural Resources Committee on March 10th, 2023

[Jeff Bromley]

I can use an example from our own organization down south. I was at an international executive board meeting, where I report on our activities from a Canadian perspective. The Biden administration's program, buy America, and the IRA are, in fact, utilizing and trying to reinvigorate different...in terms of the steel industry and using our members there, specifically in the Gary, Indiana, works and in that area, where a lot of our membership works.

It's certainly incentivizing industry to bid on U.S. procurement projects in terms of infrastructure—bridges and what have you—using U.S.-made steel and unionized U.S.... I'm sorry. It's not just U.S. Steel, as in the company, but United States steel in terms of the products to make that. They're tying the tax dollars.... It's billions of tax dollars—with a “b”—in the United States that they're offering, and they're tying it, obviously, and restricting it to American companies and American workers and unionized workers.

It's a direction that I would hope our country would follow suit on in terms of the procurement—although not quite as large—and it certainly would benefit both taxpayers and workers in Canada.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Over the last decades we've seen policies by the federal government that turn a blind eye to offshoring of good union jobs and show an unwillingness to stand up for our sectors because of this myth of globalization, yet what we're seeing with Biden is this really serious commitment about transforming the economy, not just for the jobs but also for the sustainability of the planet.

How important do you think it is that the federal government use procurement methods to promote resource work in the forestry sector, mass timber products, and being able to develop the huge beneficial resources that we have, to the benefit of our communities and our workers?

[Jeff Bromley]

It's obviously a no-brainer. Any tax dollars that stay in our communities and benefit our communities in Canada obviously provide that multiplier effect in terms of the economic benefit in supporting those workers in those communities. Again, a lot of those communities in my industry are rural. With respect to Ottawa's being a historic lumber town, it's not so much anymore as it was maybe a hundred years ago, but a lot of our operations are in the rural areas of Canada, and we need to support those communities.

It's important for the procurement to support those workers, and I think a policy such as this one to institute that goes a long way. I certainly respect my counterparts from the firefighters associations and the need to ensure the safety of their members. We need to do this right. We need to make sure we don't overlook anything that could possibly put any workers at risk, because workers are workers, whether you're running into a burning building or just getting up and going to work in the morning. We mustn't overlook that aspect. We have to make sure we put in those stringent protections, so that those members are also protected, but I think, at the end of the day, taxpayers' money being spent on supporting products within our industry and within our country is a good thing.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

The steelworkers would support changes to the national building code to ensure that if we are using mass timber products in buildings, we have in place very stringent conditions to protect in terms of fire, so that, again, those who are going into extreme situations when a fire happens are safe. Is this something the steelworkers would support—the procurement, but also making sure the building codes are modified wherever necessary to ensure we put safety front and centre?

[Jeff Bromley]

Absolutely. It's unequivocal and it's not up for debate, in my opinion. I fight every day for members within our industry. Mills, pulp mills and sawmills, are not, obviously, safe places all the time, but we fight every day to make sure our members are safe in the workplace, and it would be hypocritical of me not to expect the same for my counterparts in firefighting.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Finally, to close up, Mr. Santoro, could I ask you to wade in on this? You gave a very clear and passionate statement on the need for safety for your members.

Do you believe it's possible that we can work with the expansion of mass timber products, developing more sustainable buildings? Would it be that we have to actually focus on the building codes to know where and how it's done to keep safety front and centre?

[Carmen Santoro]

Thank you.

Of course, we would support that. We'd support the expansion of wood use in structures, as I said earlier, as long as there are protections in place not only for firefighters, but for the general public, and an awareness level so that firefighters can preplan for the dangers presented by those particular structures, including the chemicals and toxins that will be impregnated in some of those mass wood structures and the materials that go in there. They're all toxins that are cancer-causing, and we need to take the necessary precautions to ensure our members and the public are safe.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Thank you. We're out of time there. We have Mr. Samray back. We need to suspend just for a minute to do another quick test. We'll hopefully be right back in.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

We're back in session.

Mr. Simard, you have six minutes. Let's get going before we lose our guest, Mr. Samray.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

We're finally out of the woods.

Mr. Samray, I'd like you to help me clear up some misconceptions.

Earlier, I heard my colleague Mr. Dreeshen talk about life cycles, and I believe he may not have understood how it's calculated in the forestry sector. A tree captures carbon throughout its life and after 70 years it starts to release it, by being eaten by insects, burning or rotting. My colleague Mr. Dreeshen seemed to be saying that it's dangerous to use wood in building construction because the carbon would be released if the buildings burn down. We know very well that the carbon will be released in nature anyway.

Could you go back over what you said about life cycle analysis, just to make it clear for everyone?

[Jean-François Samray]

Yes.

Life cycle analysis takes into account all the carbon emitted and stored over the life of a product. So from the time you plant a tree until you harvest it, the tree is going to store carbon. Diesel-powered or hybrid machinery is used to harvest it, so its carbon emissions are calculated at that stage, during transportation, and so on, until the tree is transformed and used in building construction. All this is done according to extremely strict, internationally recognized protocols. Continuous analysis shows the amount of carbon inside the material. So this material will store carbon in buildings for decades, even centuries.

Some bridges in Quebec were built in the 1840s or 1850s, and they're still standing. Montebello's wooden-structure hotel is still there, as are many churches and buildings made of wood. So carbon has been stored in those buildings for decades, and as we see in Europe, it's been stored for centuries.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

Thank you.

So, to paraphrase what you said, wood is the most beneficial material from a carbon cycle perspective.

I like to go back to one other thing. I understand the legitimate concerns that firefighters have about building with wood, but I know that studies have shown that, due to their density, glulam or cross-laminated timber beams are more fire-resistant than structural elements made of concrete or steel. I've talked about this with people from Chantiers Chibougamau.

Are you aware of any studies like that?

[Jean-François Samray]

A number of studies have been done on that around the world, and the National Research Council of Canada (NRCC) is doing others right now. There was a demonstration fire, and various firefighters' associations were on site. They placed sensors at various depths in the wood, and the fire got up to about 1300 degrees Celsius. Because there were no sprinklers used in the test, everything burned up within about 20 minutes. At one centimetre into the beam, the temperature had only risen one degree Celsius. The beam is therefore oversized to ensure that the burning part protects the load-bearing part. Calculations show that if the building had been made of steel, the beams would have buckled and the building would have collapsed.

So don't confuse the new wood use technologies—they are building up to 23 stories nowadays—with light-frame construction like 2 x 6 or 2 x 4 houses, for example. That's something else entirely.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Samray.

You probably read the bill. In your presentation, you said it's going to take more than voluntary action. It's a worthwhile bill, that's for sure, but I believe you suggested that it should go a little further and include a mandatory, even restrictive aspect in terms of construction.

Am I misrepresenting your thinking?

[Jean-François Samray]

Look, the bill says the government can authorize the use of wood. We don't need a law to say it can do that, because it can already do it. In our view, the bill should require consideration of a wood use scenario. In Quebec, it's now required for government buildings. An analysis with a wood use scenario must be done, and now they're starting to require carbon footprint calculation as well.

Therefore, in our view, to meet GHG reduction targets while also addressing the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) imperative and complying with Canadian law, the only way to change the status quo is to require a carbon footprint analysis. In construction, it's the only way to reduce the carbon intensity of buildings.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

Lastly, I'd like to quickly discuss your calculation software, which is called Gestimat, if I'm not mistaken.

The software makes it clear that in terms of the carbon footprint, wood infrastructure provides significant gains over steel or concrete infrastructure.

[Jean-François Samray]

Yes, absolutely. On pages 4 and 5 of the brief we submitted, we talk about Vauquelin School, which has a hybrid wood and concrete structure. That reduced GHG emissions by 35%, the equivalent of 428 tonnes of carbon dioxide. That's quite a significant gain. In addition, the structure stores 861 tonnes of carbon dioxide equivalent. So that's being done today, and it's being measured and quantified.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Thank you. We're out of time there.

Colleagues, we have the clause-by-clause to get into. I have had a request from the Conservatives for one fast question.

I'm going to turn to the committee. We will need to suspend after this panel to bring in the new one. I've been told that it's a very fast question. Do I have agreement from the committee to put that out there, or would we like to move into the clause-by-clause?

[A voice]

I see thumbs up.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Okay. In the spirit of Earl's not having used his full time, I will give the floor to you, Todd, for your one quick question, and then we'll move on.

[Todd Doherty, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, colleagues, for giving us this.

I want to say thank you to all who are here for your service to our country and to our communities.

I have a simple question for our firefighters who are here today. Is the national building code enforceable on first nations land? Does it apply to first nations communities?

[Keven Lefebvre]

The enforceability of the national building code is increasing.

It's not about the enforceability of the code. It's about the capacity. First nations are becoming more independent and doing more enforcing on their own, to some extent. The resources typically haven't been there historically, but they're improving.

[Todd Doherty, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

Go ahead, Mr. Santoro.

[Carmen Santoro]

I can't answer that definitively.