Evidence of meeting #28 for Official Languages in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was company.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Graham Fraser  Commissioner of Official Languages, Office of the Commissioner of Official Languages
Clerk of the Committee  Ms. Danielle Bélisle
Johane Tremblay  Director, Legal Affairs Branch, Office of the Commissioner of Official Languages
Renald Dussault  Assistant Commissioner, Compliance Assurance Branch, Office of the Commissioner of Official Languages

9:55 a.m.

Commissioner of Official Languages, Office of the Commissioner of Official Languages

Graham Fraser

That is one of the reasons why we don't just use the complaint mechanism in talking about compliance with the legislation. The audit process is another approach. We also publish performance bulletins each year in the annual report. We have a range of means at our disposal to help us understand how things really are on the ground.

9:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Guy Lauzon

Mr. Godin, you have seven minutes.

9:55 a.m.

NDP

Yvon Godin NDP Acadie—Bathurst, NB

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

When Air Canada asked for financial assistance to provide training when it purchased Canadian Airlines International Limited, that was not because it planned to train new employees but because it found a great many unilingual employees among its staff after the merger. Air Canada told the government that it would help private-sector companies do the training, that the Official Languages Act obliged it to provide bilingual services, and that it should therefore receive assistance to help its staff learn the other official language.

I must say that the Standing Committee on Official Languages and the Senate unanimously supported the company in this. Both the committee and the Senate support Air Canada.

With respect to complaints—if we had gone before the Supreme Court, we might have won—a judge decided that the official languages issue could be set aside, that the company had the right to breach Canadian law because Air Canada was in the process of restructuring, and had permission to ignore the Official Languages Commissioner. Is that correct, or not?

10 a.m.

Director, Legal Affairs Branch, Office of the Commissioner of Official Languages

Johane Tremblay

Under the provisions of the Companies' Creditors Arrangement Act, the judge had simply ordered that all agencies with the power to regulate Air Canada, including ourselves, would suspend that power for Air Canada. However, Air Canada and the Office of the Official Languages Commissioner reached an agreement that still allowed the commissioner to move on certain types of complaints, if not all of them. We have identified certain categories of complaints which we could investigate.

10 a.m.

NDP

Yvon Godin NDP Acadie—Bathurst, NB

What I'm seeing is quite different. The judge said that we could not impose any requirements on Air Canada, because Air Canada was in the process of restructuring. The powers of the Official Languages Commissioner, which are vested in him by law, were limited, and the company was relieved of its obligation to comply with the Official Languages Act. It's as if the company had no obligation to worry about passenger safety during the restructuring process. A law is a law, and I find the judge took a very hard line. I did not agree with the judge at all.

Then, you said that Aeroplan came under provincial jurisdiction. I will check that. We can check by seeing if they have a union, and whether their accreditation is provincial or federal.

Do Air Canada's online services come under federal or provincial jurisdiction?

10 a.m.

Commissioner of Official Languages, Office of the Commissioner of Official Languages

Graham Fraser

I believe it comes under federal jurisdiction. My advisor tells me that is so.

10 a.m.

NDP

Yvon Godin NDP Acadie—Bathurst, NB

What about Air Canada Vacations? Whether you go to work or go on vacation really makes no difference. You are still taking a plane.

10 a.m.

Commissioner of Official Languages, Office of the Commissioner of Official Languages

Graham Fraser

That's under provincial jurisdiction.

10 a.m.

NDP

Yvon Godin NDP Acadie—Bathurst, NB

That's under provincial jurisdiction.

10 a.m.

Director, Legal Affairs Branch, Office of the Commissioner of Official Languages

Johane Tremblay

In fact, when determining whether something is under provincial or federal jurisdiction, we have to look at the facts. First of all, freight airlines, technical service providers and ticket providers provide related services. The bill defines what air services are, and what related services are. Ticket purchasing is a related service. Thus, we consider it clear that Air Canada's online activities are essentially online ticket reservations.

Air Canada Vacations however is really a travel agency. Travel agents come under provincial jurisdiction, unless they are a company division. If Air Canada Vacations was an integral part of Air Canada, and was a division of Air Canada, then the Official Languages Act would apply to it. However, given the nature of Air Canada Vacations' activities and given the fact that it is an entity separate from Air Canada, then it comes under provincial jurisdiction and the provinces are responsible for enacting legislation governing Air Canada Vacations' labour relations or languages.

10 a.m.

NDP

Yvon Godin NDP Acadie—Bathurst, NB

What about Air Canada Jazz?

10 a.m.

Commissioner of Official Languages, Office of the Commissioner of Official Languages

Graham Fraser

Consumer protection applies there too. Those are activities involving direct contact with the consumer and are thus protected by the province.

10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Guy Lauzon

Your five minutes are up.

Mr. Bélanger.

10 a.m.

Liberal

Mauril Bélanger Liberal Ottawa—Vanier, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Commissioner, good morning. I would like to welcome you and the members of your office.

Mr. Fraser, I hope you received my congratulations. Since I was outside the country at the time of your appointment, I left you a message.

10:05 a.m.

Commissioner of Official Languages, Office of the Commissioner of Official Languages

Graham Fraser

Yes, I received the message and appreciated it very much.

10:05 a.m.

Liberal

Mauril Bélanger Liberal Ottawa—Vanier, ON

I'd like to congratulate you in person and wish you good luck.

I think I will use my four and a half minutes to make a comment. I hope that there is someone here from Air Canada. Personally, I do not feel as charitable towards Air Canada as others may.

I was minister responsible for official languages as well as President of the Standing Committee on Official Languages. At the time, we were forced to summon the President of Air Canada to appear before the committee. He did not want to come. This dance lasted a few months.

Based on my experience, Air Canada has in the past — and continues to this day — tried to evade or shirk its responsibilities, to do as little as possible, and to use every opportunity to do as little as possible. The company uses every possible excuse to do as little as possible when it comes to mergers, and by using various tricks of the trade when it comes to restructuring. That is what we're seeing today.

I'm far less charitable towards Air Canada, the supposed national carrier for a country which has linguistic duality as a cornerstone, as stated by Mr. Cannon and previous governments. The corporation which sees itself as Canada's national airline should not wait for us to twist its arm in order for it to respect linguistic duality.

At first, Air Canada was a Canadian government agency, and then it was later privatized. The legislator's intent was clear: Air Canada was to remain subject to the Official Languages Act, period. There was no mention made of Jazz, Tango or of any other yet to be named companies which were going to be added to this structure which was created and invented in part to avoid respecting the will of a nation. I'm not going to get into this debate today.

10:05 a.m.

Bloc

Vivian Barbot Bloc Papineau, QC

The Liberals have once again pulled the cat out of the bag.

November 23rd, 2006 / 10:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Hon. Mauril Bélanger Liberal Mauril Bélanger

I'm far less charitable than others are towards Air Canada. I must admit that when I was a minister I was advised not to lodge any complaints. I accepted that advice, which I now partly regret. I used to carry around a form addressed to the commissioner, on which I simply had to put a check mark to explain the reason for my complaint. On every trip, I could have had two or even three complaints to make, with respect to terminals, in-flight service or anything else. I even seem to recall that on one specific trip I could have filed four separate complaints. Imagine that! I'm going to get back to lodging my complaints now. That will give you an idea of the reality which is that Air Canada ought not to try to shirk its responsibilities.

I am somewhat concerned by the bill we have before us. I am not a regular member of the committee, but I miss it. I sense that Bills C-47 and C-29 are somewhat diluted. I think I detect Air Canada's involvement here and its expertise working behind the scenes to evade responsibility here and there. I fully agree with the fact that Air Canada online is part of this file, as is Aeroplan. I would encourage the committee to put forth amendments if necessary.

Air Canada will always exist. So as the company, at the very core, refuses to pride itself on linguistic duality, it will forever attempt to dodge its responsibilities. The legislation should not be enforced through an order in council. The legislation itself should state precisely what enters into force when. Otherwise, we will be continuing in the same vein. For months and years now this committee has been trying to get Air Canada to understand that as Canada's national airline, it has a moral responsibility.

10:05 a.m.

Commissioner of Official Languages, Office of the Commissioner of Official Languages

Graham Fraser

I would like to make a brief comment. I am at the beginning of my term and I am not prepared to impute motives to anyone because I haven't yet gone through this experience. My approach is to be as positive as possible but I will take your experience into consideration.

10:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Guy Lauzon

Ms. Barbot, you have five minutes.

10:05 a.m.

Bloc

Vivian Barbot Bloc Papineau, QC

We were told that we could not ask any questions on the comments we heard from Air Canada. That's unfortunate, because now would have been the right time to compare your vision to what company representatives have told us. Nevertheless, I will speak in general terms.

Mr. Bélanger said that you need to have the French language coursing through your veins in order to understand what it means to be in a purportedly bilingual country and not be able to receive services in French. I think that that goes to the very heart of the issue as to Air Canada's conduct. Air Canada is acting in this way because Canada is acting in this way.

In my opinion, what happened yesterday and which you did not want to raise, is exactly that. Some people constantly get marginalized because they speak another language, because they act differently, because they are different. I find this to be particularly discouraging. Words get used to subjugate people, regardless of the efforts they may make to remain open, to define themselves and express their will. People are being told that it is not up to them to say who they are. That is exactly what is happening to francophones outside of Quebec. That is what is happening to Quebeckers, and to others.

On every front, we are being subjected to what other people want us to be, regardless of what we may do to get the government to understand that francophones have the right to be served in their own language. As a government, are you going to take the necessary means to make sure this happens? We are constantly being told it cannot be done because it's a question of money or of this, that and the other thing. But elsewhere, in international fora, we pride ourselves on being a bilingual country, while we send ministers who cannot speak French to speak on our behalf.

I do not want to embarrass you by this outburst, but do you sincerely believe it is possible for francophones throughout this country to be equal to anglophones?

10:10 a.m.

Commissioner of Official Languages, Office of the Commissioner of Official Languages

Graham Fraser

Yes. If I believed it was impossible, I would not be here today. I took on this responsibility because I believed it was a realistic ideal, an important challenge which had not yet been achieved. If I had given up on this notion of equality, I wouldn't be here today.

10:10 a.m.

Bloc

Vivian Barbot Bloc Papineau, QC

You say that you believe it is realistic. That is important. You speak French very well and so you know what this means. A belief is something we aspire to. We believe it is possible, and I fully appreciate that nuance. I don't know if everyone does, but I understand it.

From this perspective, to be honest, clear and attainable ideals would have to be drawn up, and people would need to be told how far we're going to go. We shouldn't be misleading them in telling them that they can take the plane and always be served in French. They may get French service over a given city, and yet not be able to buy their tickets in French. That level of hypocrisy is killing me.

People say certain things, but there are such barriers that everyone knows these promises will never be honoured because there are still going to be barriers elsewhere. I know full well that we Quebeckers have a solution to this, but we do feel a sense of solidarity with other francophones. If I am here today sitting on the Standing Committee on Official Languages, it is because I believe that when my francophone friends speak up, they have every reason to do so.

Are we going to find a way to tell it like it is?

10:10 a.m.

Commissioner of Official Languages, Office of the Commissioner of Official Languages

Graham Fraser

I certainly hope so.

10:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Guy Lauzon

Thank you, Ms. Barbot.

Mr. Lemieux may now ask the next question.