Official Languages Committee on Jan. 31st, 2008

[Graham Fraser]

I would think that it's up to the minister to respond in detail about the figures provided by her department.

I can see as you do that there is a gap between what was planned and what was actually spent.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

The minister should provide that information, I agree with you. The issue regarding the lack of money is one for the minister and not the Official Languages Commissioner.

However, the government has boasted about its plan of action, and you yourself have said that it worked and that we should continue to invest in it. But where? There is not enough money in the action plan. There's talk of improving education at the post-secondary, secondary and primary levels, and also in day care. But wouldn't the $132 million in the action plan have helped in that regard?

[Graham Fraser]

In my view, what you have pointed out underscores two things. For obvious and historical reasons, education is a provincial matter, and when the federal government becomes involved in an area of provincial jurisdiction, it's always more complicated and requires more work.

I have already raised the issue of transparency and accountability. It is often difficult in the context of a federal-provincial agreement to ensure that the federal funding is spent where it should be, namely in the classroom. So, as with you, we hope that the money earmarked for education is indeed spent in that area.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

We are not talking about expenditures, but of investment, namely the $132 million which the federal government has not invested. The money did not leave Ottawa to end up in Montreal. We certainly hope that the money did not end up in sponsorships. But it did not get to New Brunswick, to Hearst, to Ontario, or to Vancouver. It's not that the provinces did not want the money. I have never heard of a province refusing money. It's just that the money was not sent out. Would you agree with me on that?

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you, Mr. Godin. You may continue later. Thank you, Mr. Fraser.

We will now move to the government side with the Parliamentary Secretary, Mr. Pierre Lemieux.

[Pierre Lemieux, Conservative, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you for your presentation this morning. I appreciated what you said. With regard to the action plan, you talked about successes and challenges. You also proposed recommendations for the future. That was well done. Thank you very much to you and your team. Thank you also for what you said about Mr. Lord.

He definitely is well qualified for the task he has undertaken. From everything I've heard, he's been very well received by the people and by the leaders of our official language communities.

I particularly like the comment you made that you find your roles complementary. I agree, I think they are complementary.

I would like to know whether, in your opinion, the feedback you received from Mr. Lord with regard to official language minority communities is the same as the feedback he got during this process.

[Graham Fraser]

I can't make that comparison for now. I met with Mr. Lord last week, and our conversation was very constructive. It will come as no surprise to you that I basically told him the same thing I told you this morning, which is that there were strengths and weaknesses. In many cases, his conclusions were the same. I know that shortly after Mr. Lord was appointed, some people who wanted to be heard expressed their concerns on the subject. I think that in the end he managed to meet with those people or at least to contact them.

One thing struck me, and it is the fact that he understands that every community is unique. He learned a lot from the community in New Brunswick, and this experience is very valuable and will help him to better hear what people have to say across the country. He also understands what is at stake in the area of languages given Canada's diversity. I got the impression that he understood very well how important it was to strengthen certain things. However, I cannot compare what I heard to what he heard.

In a certain way, I can only wait to see what the government will do. The fact that the government turned to someone with as much experience as Mr. Lord is important, but what will ultimately matter are the results of this process.

[Pierre Lemieux, Conservative, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

It's true that concrete gestures are very important. The first major step we took was to include in the Speech from the Throne our commitment to the action plan, and the second step was to hold consultations which were not general, but specifically focused on the plan of action. Indeed, a great many consultations are being held between the government and the communities. But what counts is to translate words into action, and I think we are doing that.

You are right to say that Mr. Lord really listened to our communities. He remarked that some issues were common to certain communities, but that from province to province, each community was different. It is important to highlight and acknowledge these differences.

In your presentation, you talked about the four things you would like to see in the next action plan, as well as other things like

arts and culture, early childhood development, and post-secondary education.

You highlighted the important criteria. In my view, we must also establish our priorities. Success is achieved when you focus on a few issues at a time. It's not a matter of ignoring the other issues, but you just need to focus more on a few. I would like to know whether you can prioritize your recommendations.

[Graham Fraser]

You have to make a distinction. Some of the successes in this area can be explained by the systems which were created, such as the 17 health care networks. The communities said they feared that if there was a gap between March 31 and the new plan, it would mark the end of these networks. I believe it is very important that the programs that work be maintained. In an exchange I had with Minister Tony Clement, I was pleased to hear him say that agreements had been signed to maintain the networks.

I would like to point out two things. What was done in Manitoba in the area of immigration is, in my view, a model of best practices. This model could be imitated or strengthened in other parts of the country. When I was in Manitoba, I was struck by the degree of cooperation between the parties involved. You could say that it brought together the three levels of government, but there was also, in a way, a fourth level, namely the communities which were directly involved in the process which brought together the province, the municipal institutions and the federal government. In my view, this is a good model.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you, Mr. Fraser. You can tell us more when you respond to the next question. I will now begin our second round.

Mr. Rodriguez.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Fraser, thank you for being here with your team.

You seem generally satisfied with the implementation of the action plan and the way it is unfolding. Is there any part of the plan which you feel is not necessary, or at the very least which you would do differently?

[Graham Fraser]

For me, it's not at all a matter of abandoning the objectives. However, there is one problem. In fact, it seems as if the goal of having half of all high school graduates be bilingual by 2013 is not working out. If you look at the census figures, you'll realize that we have lost ground. In my opinion, it is more important to develop a strategy to encourage high school students to take second language courses. This can happen either at work or in post-secondary institutions. Students have to understand that this is important. Having a goal without a strategy is not good enough.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

If you take a step back, I would like to know whether you think there have been changes in government since Bill S-3 was adopted. Have communities or people expressed their concerns to you that things might not really be changing?

[Graham Fraser]

We are still in a transition period with regard to the application of the amendment. I don't like saying "S-3" because we are in a new session and there is a new Bill S-3. However, the act was amended just over two years ago and federal institutions are still trying to understand their new obligations. There are fairly interesting examples of initiatives which have been taken on the ground to improve collaboration and measures have been taken to help minority language communities.

Before concluding, I would like to point out that the amendment has been interpreted very narrowly, which is understandable in part because the scope of the amended act will be tested in court for the first time. So institutions naturally want to find out what the scope of their obligations are before acting.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

I would like to come back to the action plan. You mentioned that it had to be improved, and we all agree with you. You talked about certain things which could be done, including in the areas of arts and culture, and so on. We have probably all received a letter from the Association de la presse francophone saying that the first plan totally ignored the communications sector. Of course you are aware of the growing importance of communications in the world today. Further, the media play a central role in the vitality of official language minority communities. It is therefore logical and imperative to include communications in the next plan.

What do you think of this?

[Graham Fraser]

Arts and culture are important for minority communities, because they create a francophone space or, in the case of small anglophone communities, an anglophone space.

I can hardly imagine how one can live in a linguistic space without having access to means of communication. Without going into often complicated details on how newspapers are funded and freedom of the press, there is no doubt that the vitality of a minority community depends on that community being able to function in its own language.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you very much, Mr. Fraser.

We will now go back to the government with the Hon. Michael Chong.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman and Mr. Commissioner.

Today, I would like to ask a few questions about second language education, because that is the most important part of the official languages policy. Other parts deal with the protection of rights, but in my opinion, the most important thing is second language education.

In your report, you said that public support for bilingualism remains high in Canada, which is encouraging, but that support for French language instruction has waned in some parts of the country. At the last meeting, we had officials here from Canadian Heritage who told us that enrolment for French immersion has slightly increased in the country. So can you explain the apparent contradiction between those two points and maybe explain what actually is the case?

We were told at the last meeting that there are approximately 2.4 million students in Canadian schools, and out of that number, there are approximately 300,000 students in French immersion. The officials told us that number has slightly increased, particularly in Ontario, in recent years. Yet you say that French language instruction has waned in some parts of the country, so maybe you could explain that.

[Graham Fraser]

If you look at the breakdown of the numbers—and I think some of those officials went through those numbers—there are some provinces where there has been a slight slippage. What has been very impressive is the increase in British Columbia, and particularly Alberta, which is being driven by quality. I've been very impressed by what's been done in Edmonton, and I think the results show that if a planned, strategic approach to delivering quality education is adopted, parents and students follow.

I keep thinking about the fact that in the 1980s there were studies done that showed that if the increase continued at the same rate, by the year 2000 there would be one million students in immersion. Sometime in the 1990s, around the time of budget cuts, there was a plateau at about 300,000, and we've remained at about 300,000. Some provinces drop a bit, some provinces increase a bit, but certainly in terms of the potential that was seen for continuing growth and commitment, it remains fairly flat.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

In the 2003 action plan, there was a commitment made to increase the number of bilingual students in the 15 to 19 age category from approximately 24% to 50%.

I have two questions. First of all, what is the definition of bilingual? Is it those students who are just in French immersion, or those students in the normal streams who receive French language instruction? It seems to me that the only way to become bilingual is to be in French immersion.

Secondly, where are we on those numbers right now as we are partway through the action plan?

[Graham Fraser]

There are two things I would say to that.

One is—and this is one of the challenges you always have in terms of statistical analysis of language mastery—that it tends to be self-identification. So the numbers that have always provided the basis for the analysis have been the degree to which people at that age self-identify as bilingual. Every now and then, there are tests that show that people either aren't as bilingual as they think they are, or are more bilingual than they say they are. It's a challenge in knowing exactly what we're talking about.

On one comment you made, challenging the idea that immersion is the only way to be bilingual, I didn't go to immersion. I'm a product of core French, as are many of my equally bilingual colleagues.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

You were sure a talented student in those courses.

We will now move on with Monsieur Gravel.

[Raymond Gravel, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you for being here, Mr. Fraser. I have not been a member of this committee for a long time, but this is the second time you appear before the committee. I would like to thank you and your team for being here.

I'll begin with a comment. I was surprised to hear Mr. Lemieux praise Mr. Lord and his work, because the report has not even come out yet and the consultations are taking place behind closed doors. Perhaps some people have access to information which others don't.

In your presentation, you said this:

To continue supporting community development, all aspects of the current action plan must be renewed and new elements added.

You then mention arts and culture, early childhood development, day care and preschool.

Why do you think day care and preschool are so important?

[Graham Fraser]

Experience has shown, together with some studies, that in minority language communities, access to preschool was a determining factor with regard to the school which the children would then attend. But there is today a gap between the number of young people who have the right to attend a minority language school and the real number of students who actually go to such a school.

The Government of Ontario created a certain number of French early childhood education centres in minority communities outside Quebec, such as Windsor. We noticed that almost all the children who attended a French preschool then went on to attend a French school. However, it is clear that if a child who is just learning to speak French attends an English kindergarten or pre-kindergarten, chances are that child will go to an English school. I think it is very important for parents, and more particularly exogamous families, to be able to send their children to these early childhood centres.

[Raymond Gravel, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

I would like to talk about another subject, namely the incident involving Mr. Jean Léger, who was unable to receive service in French from Air Canada, and as a result missed his flight.

How do you intend to deal with that situation?