Official Languages Committee on May 31st, 2012

[Costas Menegakis, Conservative, Richmond Hill, ON]

Do you have a role in monitoring how the funds that go to a partner are used? Do we audit the partner? There were a lot of witnesses who appeared, and an awful lot of them were recipients of funding. I'm just wondering how that is monitored.

You give somebody money, they can put it in their operation and the administration of their operation. We're interested in ensuring that the money actually goes into programming that promotes linguistic duality, primarily for the English community in Quebec and for the francophone community in the rest of the country.

[Marc Tremblay]

So we come back to our basic starting premise that individual departments are responsible—the deputy heads are responsible for the spending that occurs in their department. There is an audit and evaluation policy for the Government of Canada at large, so programs are subject to audit and evaluation in that regard.

As to road map money itself, as I indicated a little earlier, there is an evaluation process going on overall, so they will be looking at the reception of funds, the outflow of funds, and the results obtained for the funds. We're undergoing that evaluation.

Madam Meredith referred to the $17 million we got over five years. Our evaluators are looking at the expenditures and asking the relevant questions. They are asking other institutions as well as members of the minority community representative groups for their views and input in order to assess whether this aspect of the program has been good value for money and has reached the results we set out to reach.

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

Thank you.

Ms. Morin, you have used three minutes. So you have two minutes left.

Mr. Godin, you will be entitled to five minutes.

[Isabelle Morin, NDP, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, for allowing me to use my two remaining minutes.

The TBS Centre of Excellence for Evaluation is currently developing an evaluation plan for the Government of Canada. How will official languages be part of that plan? We get the impression that the Centre of Excellence for Evaluation people do not really communicate with those of the Centre of Excellence for Official Languages. We would like to know why that is the case. What is your view on the matter? Are communications good? What can be done to improve communications between the two centres?

[Daphne Meredith]

Mr. Tremblay can answer that question.

[Marc Tremblay]

The TBS Centre of Excellence for Evaluation has its own activities. We are aware of some of them. However, it is true that we have not had any direct contact with them. That does not mean that official languages are not part of their projects or that official languages are not being evaluated. In general, official languages programs are part of specific evaluations.

[Isabelle Morin, NDP, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC]

It seems to me it would be logical for you to speak to each other. That would be more effective, wouldn't it?

[Marc Tremblay]

That is a good suggestion. We could definitely follow up on it.

[Isabelle Morin, NDP, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC]

Again according to the 2010 Annual Report on the Health of the Evaluation Function, the departments have nine years to increase their evaluation capacity and to conduct a comprehensive evaluation of their direct program spending. Will you be able to send us a list of what TBS requires from the institutions with regard to official languages for the purpose of that exercise? Can you tell us a little about that?

[Marc Tremblay]

I would not want to speak on behalf of colleagues. You are talking to the wrong centre, since it is the Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat that performs those responsibilities. Although we belong to that organization through the Office of the Chief Human Resources Officer, there are nevertheless separate responsibilities. I can definitely inquire with my colleagues and send you the answers.

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

Thank you, Ms. Morin.

Mr. Godin, you have the floor.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Responsibility for official languages is increasingly being handed over to human resources. Does human resources seriously have the power and analytical capability to discharge that responsibility?

[Daphne Meredith]

We are still trying to increase the capacity of human resources. We have a few ways of doing that, learning, our interactions with the community and the authorities of the departments as well. That is an ongoing effort. That is what I can tell you on that point.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Have you evaluated the consequences of those changes for the institutions' ability to meet their obligations under the act?

[Daphne Meredith]

We have tools to evaluate the institutions' performance. We have already talked about the Management Accountability Framework that we use to evaluate the departments' official languages performance. We also have other tools and even an annual report on official languages. That is what enabled us to determine where the institutions stand with regard to their capacity. It is an ongoing effort.

Mr. Tremblay can perhaps say more about that.

[Marc Tremblay]

Earlier we talked about cultural change. We are establishing a new culture in the organizations. We will have to see what effect that has. We believe that things will improve. We are completing a three-year cycle, and the first annual report in no way indicates that the change of approach has had any harmful effects. The main indicators are still improving, although certain areas require improvement.

I would like to go back to the human resources issue. Some fundamental aspects of the official languages program clearly require this staffing capability, this ability to identify needs and requirements. That is generally handled by people who work in human resources.

However, several elements lead us to reconsider the functions of the type of skills required to administer the programs in each department. Part VII of the act, the interest in development of the minorities, particularly in communications and service, and the CALDECH affair have given new impetus to the act.

Our approach is different. It is the approach of a centre that sets a general and horizontal direction, and of departments that are fundamentally and mainly concerned with the performance of their obligations. This change that we are effecting makes it possible to avoid planning a structure that would be too rigid and that would be suitable in certain departments perhaps, but not in others.

In other words, some departments tell us that it is fine to have a unit that deals with part VII and a unit that deals with part V. Others tell us that this does not really work and that they want integrated functions because those elements necessarily have to talk to each other. We let them discuss the matter and the models in place. It is up to each one to make the best choice in their own departments.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

That is what I do not understand. You would think that Treasury Board expresses ideas, states what has to be done in a very gentle manner, but it will do nothing more than prepare a report in the end. I asked the minister a question earlier. He said that the act is the act and that it has to be complied with. When a non-bilingual Auditor General was appointed, the Commissioner of Official Languages said that the act had been violated.

The act is the act, but it is not being complied with. If we did it, we would not need to speak to each other today. That is not our fault, Mr. Tremblay. The department has a mandate to enforce the act. You work in that department. Do you feel you have power when you work with them, or are there just horizontal discussions? We see the moon set, and then it's a sunny new day.

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

That's good.

[Marc Tremblay]

With your permission, Mr. Chair.

With regard to the matter of the Auditor General, you will understand that I will make no comment.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

I don't blame you.

[Marc Tremblay]

You are referring to a preliminary comment by the Commissioner of Official Languages, but I have not read it.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

This is ridiculous.

[Marc Tremblay]

However, when it comes to the tools that are at our disposal, I am talking about a cycle of change. First we aim to establish a culture of respect for values. A number of commissioners of official languages have urged us to stop talking about rules and to talk more about values. That is what we are trying to do. We are trying to focus our actions on values and to do the right thing.

That does not mean that we do not have other, more powerful tools and methods at our disposal to ensure the departments abide by the rules. Before using the stick, we try the carrot.

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

That's good.

Thank you.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

We've been trying the carrot for 40 years.