Evidence of meeting #110 for Official Languages in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was health.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Jean Rioux  Saint-Jean, Lib.
Denis Simard  President, Assemblée communautaire fransaskoise
Carol-Guillaume Gagné  Chief Executive Officer, Association des parents fransaskois
Mélissa Castonguay Cossette  Administrator, Association des parents fransaskois
Francis Kasongo  Executive Director, Collège Mathieu
Kouame N'Goandi  Manager, Accountability, Conseil économique et coopératif de la Saskatchewan
Alpha Barry  Chair, Conseil des écoles fransaskoises
Anne Leis  President, Réseau santé en français de la Saskatchewan
Ronald Labrecque  Executive Director, Assemblée communautaire fransaskoise
Frédérique Baudemont  Executive Director, Réseau santé en français de la Saskatchewan
Marie-France Kenny  President, Coopérative des publications fransaskoises
Patrick Hopf  President, French-Speaking Jurists Association of Saskatchewan
Karen Pozniak  Executive Director, Saskatchewan, Canadian Parents for French
Céline Moukoumi  President, Communauté des Africains francophones de la Saskatchewan
Gilles Groleau  Chairman of the Board of Directors, Conseil culturel fransaskois
Suzanne Campagne  Director, Conseil culturel fransaskois
Roger Gauthier  Fédération des aînés fransaskois

11:40 a.m.

President, French-Speaking Jurists Association of Saskatchewan

Patrick Hopf

No. I studied it in English.

11:40 a.m.

Liberal

René Arseneault Liberal Madawaska—Restigouche, NB

What led you to join the French-Speaking Jurists Association?

11:40 a.m.

President, French-Speaking Jurists Association of Saskatchewan

Patrick Hopf

For me, it was a family matter. My grandmother was very involved in the Francophonie and so I joined the association to, in a way, pay tribute to her great work.

11:40 a.m.

Liberal

René Arseneault Liberal Madawaska—Restigouche, NB

To your roots.

11:40 a.m.

President, French-Speaking Jurists Association of Saskatchewan

11:40 a.m.

Liberal

René Arseneault Liberal Madawaska—Restigouche, NB

I took notes, but I seem to have misplaced them. You mentioned earlier how many judges of the Court of Queen's Bench for Saskatchewan, or the superior court if you will, could speak and French and hear a case in French.

11:40 a.m.

President, French-Speaking Jurists Association of Saskatchewan

Patrick Hopf

That is a difficult question to answer because there are those who say they can and those who actually can. However, there are two judges here in Saskatchewan, one in Saskatoon and one in Estevan.

11:40 a.m.

Liberal

René Arseneault Liberal Madawaska—Restigouche, NB

Are they able to do it? Can they actually hear a case in French and understand what is going on without the help of an interpreter?

11:40 a.m.

President, French-Speaking Jurists Association of Saskatchewan

Patrick Hopf

Yes. Those two judges can, and we haven't received any complaints. However, the problem is that there are only two of them. If a judge has to hear an interim application during a trial, determining who can preside over the trial itself can be a problem. It also creates significant delays because we have to find a judge who is available. You can imagine how difficult it is to find someone in urgent cases.

11:40 a.m.

Liberal

René Arseneault Liberal Madawaska—Restigouche, NB

Madam Pozniak, I'll try to say this in English. Not being from Quebec, I learned English quite late in my life, surprisingly.

I lived in a completely homogenous French-language region.

As an anglophone in this province who is sensitive to French-speaking people in Canada and finds it very important that we promote that, can you tell me if there's any kind of pressure that was put on your provincial government through the years, because you've had 40 years? As I understand it, it's your 40th year of existence.

11:45 a.m.

Executive Director, Saskatchewan, Canadian Parents for French

Karen Pozniak

It's our 41st.

11:45 a.m.

Liberal

René Arseneault Liberal Madawaska—Restigouche, NB

Through all those years, what kind of pressure was brought by your association to your provincial government when you were asking for more help, for financing, for more schools?

11:45 a.m.

Executive Director, Saskatchewan, Canadian Parents for French

Karen Pozniak

One of the pillars we have is advocacy. We meet with the provincial government, because it's so important, and Canadian Parents for French is supported by the provincial government as well. We receive money from our department of education to do our programming.

There is a great amount of support, both for our organization and for the French second language programs, and the programs continue to grow. In the core French program—French as a subject—the numbers in the province were going down from the very beginning, but that's also because there are more programs, other programs, that people are putting their children into. Our French immersion programs are growing. Intensive French, which is a strengthened core program, is growing. Enriched core French is growing. There's the addition of late immersion as well. Also, enrolments in the francophone community are growing as well. There are a lot of other options.

The government is very supportive of the programs, but I think we are in a situation that is occurring across the country. There's such growth, and there's competition between provinces for teachers. There's competition between the francophone school board—the CEF—and French immersion for teachers. There's such growth in the program that it's hard to meet that capacity.

Also, I think a part of it is about the resources that are available to teachers in French immersion. Often they have to translate. They have to find resources in English, translate them, and then present them to their students. The availability of resources in French is limited.

I guess it's also a numbers game. There's a lot in English, so the resources are cheaper. When you go to French resources, it's just more expensive because of the lack of volume. That's what they tell us, anyway.

Also, there's turnover of teachers. Teachers are not staying within the profession. Teachers in general are not staying in the profession. I believe that for the teachers, it's five years. Even English teachers are leaving. I believe that Great Britain is now heading into a shortage of teachers, period.

Here's what I think happened. My understanding of the situation is that the colleges were putting out a lot of teachers and teachers weren't finding a lot of jobs, so enrolment went down and fewer teachers were graduating, and now.... As I said earlier, it takes several years to create a qualified teacher, so now I think we're coming upon a perfect storm of a situation. There's a lack, and French teachers also are leaving the profession.

11:45 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Denis Paradis

Thank you, Karen.

Thank you very much, Mr. Arsenault.

We will now move on to Mr. Choquette.

September 27th, 2018 / 11:45 a.m.

NDP

François Choquette NDP Drummond, QC

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you everyone.

Thank you very much for your time and for sharing your experiences with us.

My question is for the president of the French-Speaking Jurists Association of Saskatchewan.

I have here an article that was posted on #ONf by Benjamin Vachet on September 17, 2018. He is talking about the return of federal MPs to Ottawa. It reads:

The modernization of the Official Languages Act (OLA) will constitute a large part of the FCFA's work since it intends to present its own bill at the end of November, but the return of the court challenges program remains one of the organization's main priorities in the short term.

The President of the FCFA, Jean Johnson, said: “We have been told that members of the expert panel should be appointed in October, but we want to make sure that the funding that was not used over the past two years will also be transferred to the program so that none of it is lost.”

The reinstatement of the court challenges program was announced at the end of February 2017. It was also announced in 2016. Two years later, funding still cannot be requested under that program because no one has been appointed to implement the program yet.

Are you aware of that? Are you working with the FCFA on the implementation of the court challenges program? You mentioned earlier that the return of this program has been a success, but it still cannot be used. There were some very important cases in your neighbouring province of British Columbia, for example, but funding could not be requested under the court challenges program.

What is actually happening on the ground and what are your requests in that regard?

11:50 a.m.

President, French-Speaking Jurists Association of Saskatchewan

Patrick Hopf

First of all, we are very pleased about the reinstatement of the program. However, there are some serious flaws in its application and coordination. I strongly support the work of the federation, which has taken on a leadership role in this case. We are very pleased about that.

Even though very little time has passed between the cancellation and reinstatement of the program, the problem is that organizations and individuals do not know what services are available. At this point, it is not easy to find out about the support offered by the program. I therefore think that the most important thing is to promote and implement the program.

With regard to whether or not there is sufficient funding, that is always a political issue—

11:50 a.m.

NDP

François Choquette NDP Drummond, QC

Thank you very much. I want to leave a little time for Ms. Moukoumi since she did not quite finish her presentation and perhaps she would like to talk a little bit more about her concerns or give us some more information from her presentation.

11:50 a.m.

President, Communauté des Africains francophones de la Saskatchewan

Céline Moukoumi

Thank you for this opportunity.

There are a few points that I did not get a chance to make about access to services.

In 2013, before Gaston's suicide attempt, health authorities refused us access to him, access that would certainly have made it possible to save his life. How does the government intend to facilitate the community's access to health care and how does it plan to be more receptive to what organizations such as the Communauté des Africains francophones de la Saskatchewan, or CAFS, have to say to prevent this type of situation from happening again?

Many studies conducted in Saskatchewan and other provinces show that most of the services that are currently being offered to newcomers do not adequately meet their needs. For example, the number of non-traditional families within our community is growing because in Africa we have alternative family dispute resolution mechanisms that do not involve the justice system or the police. How does the government intend to implement its plan and ensure that it meets the actual needs of newcomers? We cannot continue to use the number of people who participated in an activity as an indicator of a program's success. Success indicators must also include data on the effective changes in the situations of program participants.

With regard to the strengthening our communities component, if we want to build the Francophonie of tomorrow, we cannot just fund cultural activities on an ad hoc basis. I am thinking in particular of Black History Month celebrations. Such activities need to be a regular part of our school programs. Today, there is a lot of talk about reconciliation with indigenous peoples. It is therefore also time to take into account the cultures of newcomers in the tools used to strengthen the community, and that starts in our schools. When will school curricula be changed to reflect diversity? For example, when will it include the reading of African stories?

The sharing and transmission of culture to young people is essential in retaining newcomers since we want to increase the number of newcomers in the province.

11:55 a.m.

NDP

François Choquette NDP Drummond, QC

If I understand you correctly, Ms.—

11:55 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Denis Paradis

Mr. Choquette, I think it is time to move on to someone else.

Thank you, Mr. Choquette.

Thank you, Ms. Moukoumi.

Mr. Rioux, the floor is yours.

11:55 a.m.

Saint-Jean, Lib.

Jean Rioux

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Campagne, over the past three days, you provided a very good summary of the situation of francophone communities outside Quebec.

You are given the means to survive but not to thrive. Enhancing the vitality of both francophone and anglophone minority communities is part of Canada's identity.

You opened a door when you talked about the modernization of the act. You said that the act was designed for Quebec. Could you be more specific? How could the legislation be changed to be more Canadian?

11:55 a.m.

Director, Conseil culturel fransaskois

Suzanne Campagne

I believe that the Official Languages Act was created because there was quite a bit of tension between Quebec and the federal government at that time.

If Canada is truly inclusive, then where is the evidence that people can be served in French wherever they go and that they receive equal treatment with their anglophone counterparts?

The climate in western Canada has changed a lot. Ms. Pozniak talked about the enthusiasm for learning French. Forty years ago, people had to be careful about where they spoke French in Saskatchewan. That is no longer the case. Many people have a positive understanding of French, and we need to promote it. However, under the current system, the fewer people there are, the fewer resources are allocated.

That is problematic for a province like ours because it has an impact on the way we can welcome African newcomers who come here and want to join our community. The resources are not there to accommodate newcomers and those who have already been in the community awhile. The way of thinking is that resources should be allocated by resident, and so communities with fewer residents get less. That is not a formula that works. It has never worked for us, and that is the root of the issue.

I want to come back to the promotion of bilingualism. Our bilingual country is very poorly promoted. We do not boast about the fact that we are unique in the world. People in other countries often learn several languages, but we are unique in our world, and we do not promote that in a positive way that reflects the nation as a whole. That is a problem.

11:55 a.m.

Saint-Jean, Lib.

Jean Rioux

Thank you.

We do not have much time left. I have one last question.

Mr. Gauthier, earlier, you said that the federal public service is now offering fewer services in French.

Is there not a contradiction there given that the number of children going into French immersion in Canada is on the rise? Shouldn't more services be offered if people are taking French immersion programs since they will then be able to communicate in both official language?

11:55 a.m.

Fédération des aînés fransaskois

Roger Gauthier

Yes, it is rather ironic. I am part of the Comité consultatif sur les affaires francophones, which works on improving French-language services across the province.

I think that we are making more progress at the provincial level right now than at the federal level because at least the province has a mechanism in place to monitor what is happening. The federal government does not have anything like that.

Those who work in our branches or in a department are often sent to Alberta or Manitoba. Then we have to deal with people in Manitoba or Alberta to get access to those responsible for services.

People who work for the federal government are often bilingual, and they start out working within the French-language network when they are first hired. Then, as they move their way up the ranks of the public service, they disappear. They move to Alberta or Manitoba because they have worked their way up to a management position.

Take, for example, Denis Racine, who is the director general for official languages. He started his career here. Now, he lives in Ottawa. That is good. It means we have a friend there, but services offered by the federal public service in French are deplorable. We have felt that for a long time.

Noon

Saint-Jean, Lib.

Jean Rioux

You said that services were better before. Why is the quality of service declining?