Official Languages Committee on Dec. 11th, 2018

[François Choquette, NDP, Drummond, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Caza, for being here today. Your presentation very eloquently described the daily struggles minority communities face in order to preserve and promote their language, their culture and their identity. That's extremely important.

You talked briefly about the federal government's role and that of the committee. Over the past three weeks, we have been wondering exactly what we can do and what role we can play. Based on the information we have, everyone seems to be passing the buck. Ms. Mulroney says that Ms. Joly was never clear about funding for the Université de l'Ontario français, while Ms. Joly says that funding cannot be provided if no official request is made. It's a bit of a vicious circle and we're not getting anywhere. For their part, AFO representatives have said they need leadership from the federal government.

What would federal leadership look like?

[Ronald F. Caza]

To illustrate how the federal government could show some leadership, I will use the example of the Premier of Quebec, who harshly criticized Premier Ford's decision to make changes to the Office of the Commissioner and to scrap plans to build the Université de l'Ontario français. He has said publicly that he did not understand how anyone could do that or justify that.

This sends Franco-Ontarians a clear message that continuing the fight to preserve their language and their culture is worthwhile, and the person sending it was the Premier of Quebec.

I think it's important that the federal government, the Prime Minister and ministers speak publicly about how critical it is to preserve linguistic minorities in all provinces. They shouldn't hold back. We must not be afraid to point out when a group that is very much in the minority is becoming even smaller. It might be hard for some to accept Canada's unique reality: we are a country with two languages and two cultures, and they both must be able to exist throughout Canada. That needs to be made very clear.

Speaking out on this, loud and clear, can do two things. First, it encourages members of the majority to realize that they do indeed need to become more engaged and take the necessary action. I'm talking a lot about the current situation in Ontario because I want to make sure our government does the right thing.

Second, it could also send the strongest possible message to members of the linguistic minority, telling them that continuing their efforts is worthwhile.

[François Choquette, NDP, Drummond, QC]

With respect to the current crisis, when the Commissioner of Official Languages, Raymond Théberge, appeared before the committee, he gave several examples of how official language rights have experienced some setbacks in Canada. He talked about New Brunswick, for example, and what is happening there, as well as other provinces, particularly Saskatchewan.

There was a first ministers' meeting last Thursday and Friday. We were expecting the importance of official languages to be on the agenda, but unfortunately, it wasn't. I understand that all kinds of topics are discussed on the sidelines, but the topic was not included on the official agenda.

What do we need? Should the Prime Minister call a first ministers' meeting specifically to discuss this very topic to take stock of the situation?

Groups in a minority situation can't afford to lose any ground. As you said, we always need to move forward. We can't simply tread water; we need to continue swimming, and never stop, which is very tiring.

We have noticed the setbacks. What should our demands be in order to ensure that the situation is resolved? Should we not be calling for more leadership? Of course the situation in Ontario is extremely serious, but there are other similar situations in Canada.

How can we define leadership at the federal level in Canada?

[Ronald F. Caza]

Mr. Choquette, I believe the FCFA has also made similar demands. Its members have emphasized that this could be a good way to send a message to all Canadians. Convening a meeting of the first ministers of all the provinces to discuss this topic could really emphasize the importance of the language issue, which is every bit as important as economic concerns.

I would even go as far as to say that it's more important than economic concerns, and here's why. Even an economic argument cannot be used to override existing constitutional obligations in the area of linguistic rights.

I must say that we have an opportunity right now that appeared just recently. Let me explain. The Quebec premier has publicly stated that he agrees that the linguistic minority in that province must be looked after. I have argued many cases of a constitutional nature before the Supreme Court of Canada and I can tell you that Quebec's actions are not always straightforward. For instance, rather than supporting linguistic minorities, it actually acts against the position of linguistic minorities. Why? Because it's afraid of setting a precedent that could by used by anglophones in Quebec.

I did once represent the English-speaking minority in Quebec on a case before the Supreme Court of Canada. In reality, that political concern doesn't really have any bearing here. As we saw from the episode of Tout le monde en parle, there is a strong desire to support the Franco-Ontarian minority. Maybe it's because there is a certain awareness on the part of Quebeckers, who may be thinking that we're all members of the same extended family, and we need their help right now.

One of the ways Quebeckers can help us is by taking part in the debate and saying they think it's important to be concerned about what happens to Franco-Ontarians. Instead of focusing their efforts on making sure the anglophone linguistic minority doesn't cause them too many problems, they should be joining with us to ensure that all francophone minorities, in all provinces, are respected.

We have an opportunity to take action here. This might be the best time to bring all the premiers together to discuss the matter. It should be done sooner rather than later, so that everyone is on the right track. We can't wait for more unfortunate decisions to be made. Two unfortunate decisions have been made in Ontario, and we need to make sure that doesn't happen in any other provinces.

[The Chair, Liberal, Denis Paradis]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Fortier, go ahead.

[Mona Fortier, Ottawa—Vanier, Lib.]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Caza, thank you for being here today and clarifying a number of things for us.

I would like to share something with my colleagues. In a stoke of genius, last weekend the Franco-Ontarian artist Mélissa Ouimet released a song called “Personne ne pourra m'arrêter” or “No one can stop me”, which she performs with other francophone artists. It's a bit like synchronized swimming. The song illustrates exactly how minority communities can never give up. I encourage everyone to watch the video, which is extremely moving for anyone living this reality every day.

We are still in shock, but now we are starting to take action. I know that Minister Joly had an opportunity to see Premier Ford at the first ministers' meeting last week. Our government has reached out to the Premier of Ontario, and we are ready to work with him to provide funding for the Université de l'Ontario français. Mr. Caza, do you think the Ford government will respond to our invitation and be open to dialogue?

[Ronald F. Caza]

Thank you for your question, Ms. Fortier. You have been at the helm of nearly all the battles fought by the Franco-Ontarian community.

I would say the federal government has spoken out from the beginning of this crisis, from the day the Ford government announced this on Thursday, November 15. It has sent a clear message that it will not hesitate to contribute to this fight. Obviously, from a legal standpoint—and I use the word “legal” advisedly—the federal government must be ready for anything, but it cannot interfere. It therefore has to wait for the Ford government to reach out. My challenge for you is to find a political way for the Ford government to do the right thing without losing face.

If this ends up going to court, our objective is not to make the Ontario government lose face. When the initial decision was made, Premier Ford and Minister Mulroney did not intend to cause irreparable harm to the linguistic minority. They may not have anticipated the potential harm when they made the decision, but now they're aware of it, now they're familiar with the reality, and no one can deny the direct result of their decision.

There's nothing wrong with now saying that corrective action must be taken. As for the office of the commissioner, follow-up is needed. As for the Université de l'Ontario français, however, we need to take action as soon as possible, because every day counts. The president, Mr. Labrie, appeared here to explain what his game plan is for the days to come. We need to encourage the Prime Minister to join the discussion to come up with a solution.

[Mona Fortier]

It's sad that we have to go to battle once again to protect our gains. It's really problematic. As we build things up, we are suddenly being forced to back down, against our will. What could the federal government do to put up a resistance to this kind of reaction on the part of the provinces? Is there a way to protect our gains by modernizing the Official Languages Act, or is there another way?

[Ronald F. Caza]

The answer is yes, but I must be careful.

In my opinion, as a lawyer, that obligation already exists in the Official Languages Act, in part VII, which could actually be improved and clarified. However, Ontario has the French Language Services Act, which, in practical terms, imposes the same obligations on the provincial government as part VII imposes on the federal government. In these circumstances, however, the provisions should be as clear as possible to avoid the possibility of challenges to those obligations.

It's important to understand why we have the French Language Services Act and why the Official Languages Act is so important. This legislation is not really necessary when a government believes in the importance of official languages. It becomes necessary when a government doesn't see official languages as all that important or as a priority, and doesn't believe they deserve to be treated differently than other languages. That is when we need these protections. Previous Ontario governments passed the French Language Services Act so that we could fall back on it today.

[Mona Fortier]

Thank you very much, Mr. Caza.

[The Chair, Liberal, Denis Paradis]

Thank you very much.

We'll now continue with Darrell Samson.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

My preamble is usually about four minutes long.

Mr. Caza, I don't know where to begin. I have 50 questions.

The first comment I want to make is that we need to speak one-on-one, because I like you already, even though I hardly know you.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

I found your description of life in a minority community very moving, from beginning to end. I grew up in that setting, I know it well, and I contributed to it.

First of all, I really liked the analogy you used, comparing the fight for linguistic rights to swimming. I noticed that my colleagues around the table, especially those who live in a majority setting, seemed to really appreciate that.

For 15 years now, every time I give a speech, I always say that living in a minority community means going to bed later and getting up earlier. It is necessary for survival, and it fits in well with your swimming analogy, which, I repeat, is very interesting.

I also often say that when times are tough economically, it becomes even more obvious when those in power lack leadership. Here's a good illustration: when there's less water in the lake, the animals around the lake look at each other differently.

That is very, very important.

We could spend hours talking about this, but I'll begin with a quick example.

St. Francis Xavier University has a very good reputation. It was founded on Isle Madame and, from the first year, classes were originally in French. It was moved to Antigonish and is now an English-speaking institution.

Last week marked the 50th anniversary of saving Université Sainte-Anne in Nova Scotia, a francophone university that was supposed to be moved to Yarmouth, an English-speaking city. People fought relentlessly to save the university. It remains an outstanding French-language university today.

Of course, as you mentioned, we have the Université de Moncton, which could have been a bilingual university, which is what some people wanted. Thanks to people who never stopped swimming, that didn't happen. This is also extremely important.

Alain Dupuis, from the FCFA, was here a few weeks ago and his comments also really moved me. He said that in Quebec, everything is done to protect institutions. In minority situations, however, it's the institutions that protect minorities. That is very powerful.

This leads me to my questions. As I said, I could talk about this for quite some time.

I have three questions for you, which I will ask one after the other, but you can answer them as you wish.

My colleagues from Quebec might appreciate this. I wonder if you could talk briefly about the people of Quebec City compared to the francophone minority in Ontario.

I wonder if you could also talk a little bit about provincial responsibilities. Once again, the lack of leadership is more obvious when we hear that the federal government can't intervene because this is a provincial jurisdiction. I have a problem with that when it's a question of the two founding nations, as you mentioned.

I have so many questions, but I'll try to stop there.

[The Chair, Liberal, Denis Paradis]

Mr. Samson, we need to allow the witness time to respond.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

Yes, yes, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Caza, you could also touch on another aspect of this, specifically, what the Minister of Immigration did for francophones outside Quebec. A group of francophones is working to attract immigrants, another group of francophones welcomes them, and a third group gives them information on French-language education in their communities.

Could you expand a little on that for us, please?

[Ronald F. Caza]

Thank you very much.

I mentioned the University of Ottawa and Laurentian University in Sudbury. Obviously, those institutions are primarily English-speaking, but still, they have done a lot for the francophone community.

For instance, loads and loads of people have been trained through programs offered at those institutions. One of the greatest achievements of any university is shaping future leaders.

Consider, for example, the one in Moncton. Almost all the leaders in the francophone community are graduates of the Université de Moncton. The same goes for nearly every university. Our future leaders must absolutely get their education in francophone institutions. That is important.

When I was invited to appear on Tout le monde en parle, I saw it as a unique opportunity to convey a message to our brothers and sisters in Quebec. I was reminded of when Denise Bombardier said that there were hardly any Franco-Ontarians left or any Métis, I believe, in Manitoba or anywhere else in the country.

One of the things I pointed out was that there are more Franco-Ontarians, francophones in Ontario, than the entire population of Quebec City. I just wanted to put things in perspective.

Many people were really surprised to hear that. That is the reality. The number of francophones in Ontario is greater than the number of people living in the capital of Quebec, which is the second largest city in the province in terms of population.

As for provincial responsibilities, when I am in court, we argue about legal, provincial and federal responsibilities, but politically speaking, it's more of a moral responsibility.

When a province causes irreparable harm to the linguistic minority, all Canadians are harmed. That is the reality. To say that this can't be done, that it's unacceptable and that it must stop is a moral responsibility. It's important to discuss what the province is going to do to prevent that from happening. That is basically the essence of the responsibility. What is happening in Ontario affects individuals in every part of the country. If decisions made by the provincial government lead to assimilation, then all Canadians are assimilated, and not just Franco-Ontarians.

The worst is yet to come. It's therefore important that intervention happens now. What you mentioned regarding immigration is exactly what needs to be done. It's important to explain to newcomers who arrive with their families that they can live a full life, grow, be happy and offer the very best to their children, all in French. This can happen in Quebec, but also elsewhere throughout the country.

[The Chair, Liberal, Denis Paradis]

Thank you very much.

Go ahead, Mr. Clarke.

[Alupa Clarke, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Caza, I want to continue exploring the issue of moral responsibility at the political level. I completely agree with what you said on that. Getting back to the metaphor you used, I think the Standing Committee on Official Languages can serve as a bit of a lighthouse, or at least I hope it can, for official language minority communities all across the country. The ultimate goal of the study we have urgently undertaken is to toss them a lifeline. That's why I'd really like you to talk about the intentions and directives you would like to be included in the report, and please be as specific as you possibly can. We will be sending it to the federal government, and that is where our power lies.

What would you like to see in the report, Mr. Caza?

[Ronald F. Caza]

Mr. Clarke, you are quite right when you say that you invited all these stakeholders to give their opinion on the matter in order to explain their reality to other people. You made it clear to everyone, to literally all Franco-Ontarians and people outside the province, that what they're doing is important, and it's worth it to continue the fight. That is what the committee is doing, particularly by doing this study. That is the message you are sending to all linguistic minorities. That's clear.

As for the contents of the report, I think the first thing to emphasize is how urgent the situation is, that it's a question of irreparable harm and that institutions will be lost. Let's not kid ourselves. Considerable efforts have been made to get the Université de l'Ontario français off the ground. If its opening, which was supposed to be in 2020, is delayed by two or three years, there will be no university. The individuals who have already worked so hard and the people who were about to be hired as teachers will no longer be available.

One of the extraordinary aspects of the Montfort Hospital file is that the agreement reached with the Harris government specified that the hospital would remain untouched until the legal system had determined the scope of the government's responsibilities.

[Alupa Clarke, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

That's interesting.

[Ronald F. Caza]

That is how we were able to retain our doctors, nurses and specialists at the Montfort. The board and Gérald Savoie had their work cut out for them, but at least we had that protection.

As far as the university is concerned, the government could tell us today to keep moving forward as planned, to go through with the first year's activities while the case is before the courts. Then, in due course, the University would look at where to go from there if it won its case in court. That would prevent all sorts of problems since the current plan to scrap the university would be stopped in its tracks. It's important to remember that this is an urgent situation.

Secondly, it is important to understand that we have a legal and moral duty to do everything we can to stop this from happening. This project cancellation must not go through.

Thirdly, and perhaps most importantly, this initiative has to be perceived in a positive light. The existence of our linguistic minorities is good news for Canada. The main reason we want Canada to remain bilingual is the tremendous benefit these linguistic minorities represent across Canada. It is an extraordinary example for humanity and all the other countries around the world. People would see that we are capable of respecting our linguistic minorities in a positive manner, which benefits everyone and that we were not just doing this out of obligation to the Constitution, for example.

When we won our case in the Ontario Court of Appeal, Mike Harris and his Conservative government did not appeal to the Supreme Court of Canada. They accepted the ruling. In fact, they accepted not only the letter, but also the spirit of the ruling. Someone who does not respect the spirit of a ruling or such and such an order will continue to drag the case through the courts. What we need to realize is that respecting linguistic minorities is good for all of us and that this reality can continue to exist in Canada.

[The Chair, Liberal, Denis Paradis]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Lambropoulos, you have the floor.

[Emmanuella Lambropoulos, Saint-Laurent, Lib.]

Hello, Mr. Caza. Thank you for being here with us today.

I really enjoyed your introduction in which you talked about what it means to live in a language minority situation. I am a Quebecker, but I am an anglophone. I relate to what you are saying when you say that linguistic minorities are forever having to make the effort to protect their language and culture in provinces where the majority speaks the other language. I would like to know what that effort looks like when a government doesn't allow you to live in your language and have the same opportunities as others?

[Ronald F. Caza]

Thank you very much, Ms. Lambropoulos.

As I mentioned, in two major cases brought before the Supreme Court of Canada, I represented the anglophone minority, which was facing important challenges similar to those that francophone minorities were facing elsewhere in the country. In these cases, the Attorney General of Quebec was the opposing party. He told me that they liked when I defended francophone minorities outside Quebec, but were less enamoured with the idea of me representing Quebec's anglophone minority. I told him that everything the Government of Quebec was doing to the anglophone minority gave all the other governments permission to do the same thing to francophone minorities.

The most vulnerable in all this are young people. There are varying degrees of commitment by members of a linguistic minority. On one end there are those who would rather die than give up their language and culture. That is the case of Mr. Samson and others. On the other end, there are those who, in response to being asked in a store “I don't speak French. Why do you speak French to me?”, when they were speaking French, will stop making the effort, get on board, and that is where it ends. We are taking care of those on that end of the spectrum. We make all our decisions with a view to protecting the most vulnerable and those who are just about ready to give up.

That is why it is so important to fight decisions like the ones to cancel the university project and cut an essential part of the Commissioner's mandate. All our decisions seek to protect the most vulnerable. We are fighting for them. We are taking this to court for them. Unfortunately, most of these people are young and do not fully appreciate what it will take to preserve their language and culture.

The good thing is that most of these young people learned about the Montfort Hospital case in school. That case is part of the curriculum for all linguistic minorities in Canada. They study the Montfort case and why it was brought before the courts, what the courts ruled and why it is important to keep up the fight. They are the ones we are fighting for.

I will tell you why this decision to end the university project is so hard to accept. A university like that would allow young people, who are more vulnerable, to do their university studies in French after completing their secondary school program. Of course there are excellent francophone colleges, but there would have also been a francophone university option.