Evidence of meeting #134 for Official Languages in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was quebec.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Rachel Hunting  Executive Director, Townshippers' Association
Geoffrey Chambers  President, Quebec Community Groups Network
Sylvia Martin-Laforge  Director General, Quebec Community Groups Network
Emmanuella Lambropoulos  Saint-Laurent, Lib.
Mona Fortier  Ottawa—Vanier, Lib.

12:20 p.m.

Director General, Quebec Community Groups Network

Sylvia Martin-Laforge

Oh, he's at the food table.

I'm so sorry. You know when we talked this morning about the 400 students in a school that was for 800 students?

12:20 p.m.

An hon. member

That was 450 students.

12:20 p.m.

Director General, Quebec Community Groups Network

Sylvia Martin-Laforge

There were 450 students who were in a school that was too large. That should be taken very seriously. That a school would be closed or taken away because we are at 450 students should not happen.

There are millions of dollars that come to us from the entente en éducation. Why aren't we using some of that money to bolster our schools? That's an example. I don't know if it's feasible.

I think my president has something to say.

12:20 p.m.

President, Quebec Community Groups Network

Geoffrey Chambers

Well yes, it seems to me that there's a numbers question on the Island of Montreal and off the Island of Montreal.

The policy that the Government of Quebec applies to language questions is applied generally across the province. And it's true that on the Island of Montreal or in the Montreal region there is a long historical tradition of institutions built by the community for the most part serving the community well. Some of them date from a couple hundred years ago.

However, it's the only official language minority in the country in which the trend is a decline. Our hospitals are not as controlled or as connected to the community as they used to be. Our universities are wonderful organizations, but they are very integrated into the majority community as well.

The service profile that the community used to have, certainly in health and social services and to some extent in education, has declined.

12:25 p.m.

Liberal

René Arseneault Liberal Madawaska—Restigouche, NB

Would you say that language is the first problem you can identify that causes this?

12:25 p.m.

President, Quebec Community Groups Network

Geoffrey Chambers

Well there is a demographic pattern, and language fits into it.

Our community is not in numerical decline. There are places where it's in numerical decline, but overall in the province it is not.

12:25 p.m.

Executive Director, Townshippers' Association

Rachel Hunting

Sorry to interrupt, but if you think about it in a rural context as well, you have a large population on the Island of Montreal, but if you take my region as an example, the way the services are delivered by the provincial government is usually through MRCs, so you'll have a disparity of services.

If you take the Estrie 05 region—I know the Cantons de l'Est is different—in just that one administrative region, from one MRC to another, you have a disparity of service for the English-speaking community.

What is available in Coaticook is not available in Richmond, is not available in Asbestos and is not available in East Angus in the same way.

You have a community that operates as one large community. I often say that our community is like a small town spread out over a very large area. Our community knows that this disparity exists within itself and its own membership, and it struggles to understand how legislation at the federal level, like the Official Languages Act, is not impacting or not available to help with those kinds of situations.

12:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Alupa Clarke

Thank you, Madame Hunting.

You have the floor for six minutes, Ms. Fortier.

12:25 p.m.

Mona Fortier Ottawa—Vanier, Lib.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much for both of your presentations. It's great to have you here today. We are all working very hard, and I hope to strengthen and modernize the Official Languages Act with you.

I've heard your presentations, and I would invite you to give us some indication of how you think we should define those terms, because I'm not sure you have done so in your submissions. I believe that the terms are really important. Depending where you go, there may not be the same way of defining them. It would be really interesting to have your definition of the terms you presented earlier.

I know, Rachel, you mentioned four terms, and it would be great to hear them if you have them already defined.

12:25 p.m.

Executive Director, Townshippers' Association

Rachel Hunting

I don't have them already defined, but I do have suggestions for the way we can come to those definitions as a community. I don't think they should be imposed; I think it should be a consultative issue.

I think it's of primordial importance to take into account that the English-speaking community in Quebec is a community of communities that are extremely diverse. The needs are as diverse as the population is. We need to move away from legislation, definitions and frameworks that pit Montreal against the regions, and those kinds of things. I think we need to find a more inclusive way of looking at those definitions.

My colleagues at the QCGN might have some suggestions.

12:25 p.m.

President, Quebec Community Groups Network

Geoffrey Chambers

I'd like to argue that we need an active, interventionist, energetic, supportive attitude from the federal government, always understanding that when there's a dialogue between federal and provincial authorities, there are going to be complications.

I'm going to give you two examples. They're examples of areas in which it would be difficult to solve the problem, but I really think we have to address them. You'll see from the examples why I think that.

There's a transfer of about $65 million per year in education to the provincial government. Sylvia and I were invited to a consultation about a year ago by the deputy minister to talk about how that money would be spent. We walked into the room, a room sort of this size, with this many people on our side of the table, 20 or so. The deputy minister stood up and said, “It is very important that we spend this money effectively. We get $65 million and $40 million is spoken for. Let's talk about the last $25 million.”

What about the $40 million? No, we don't want to talk about it.

They stole $40 million and went and used it for something else, nothing to do with our community, and they more or less admitted it to us in a closed room.

Now they're giving us a chance to have some input on the $25 million, which we didn't used to have, and everybody wanted to have a good day, and they had a good conversation about that. But that's not really right. I'm not saying that that $40 million isn't very well spent on virtuous projects that really do good, but they're not even telling our community what they are.

That's example number one. I should say, in regard to that example, that we know that Madame Joly has taken a much more aggressive attitude towards transparency and accountability in regard to these matters, and they're negotiating new ententes, so the situation may improve, but if she does that, it is an illustration of what we're talking about, going in and solving the problem, understanding the problem and solving it.

12:30 p.m.

Ottawa—Vanier, Lib.

Mona Fortier

That's also with a linguistic clause that defines the result of using that money, if I understand you well, which is not there at this time.

12:30 p.m.

President, Quebec Community Groups Network

Geoffrey Chambers

Exactly. It's not there now, and I speak for my brethren in other provinces. As you all probably know, we're not blaming the government of Quebec for being particularly bad about this.

12:30 p.m.

Ottawa—Vanier, Lib.

Mona Fortier

No, no, no, it's the process that needs to change.

12:30 p.m.

President, Quebec Community Groups Network

Geoffrey Chambers

Everybody does it, I think.

The other example is even messier. We heard this just yesterday. There are 18,000 immigration files that are being discontinued in Quebec, for 50,000 people. There's a class, in that file, of people who are in Quebec and who are acting as caregivers and are very far advanced in the process. They could get citizenship right away or soon under the new rules if they could pass a French test. However, many of them are caregivers who have been recruited from south Asia and who are in Quebec serving English families, and they're not going to pass the French test.

If they could find an English family in Cornwall or Toronto or anywhere else in the country, the next day they could have their permanent residency, but that's a very big thing to ask them.

So can we find some solution for these 8,000 to 10,000 people? These are 3,000 to 4,000 applications; they have families. The federal government has a role to play there now because it's complicated and might possibly require some intrusiveness, but maybe just a spirit of problem-solving.

12:30 p.m.

Ottawa—Vanier, Lib.

Mona Fortier

Thank you.

I have a question for Rachel, and for QCGN also if you would like to share. How can we engage more with municipalities and townships, especially with those transfers of money? If the money goes through the province and then goes to the municipality, I understand there's that, I'll say, disconnect, because I can't find the right word, but, you know, a third party.

How would you see that? How can we strengthen the current process or contracts to help, if I understand, municipalities or townships be able to use that money to service on the ground?

12:30 p.m.

Executive Director, Townshippers' Association

Rachel Hunting

That's a good question.

I think there has to be a campaign that promotes and highlights the official language minority in Quebec as well. I think that's an important starting point, because we're not identified by the provincial government as an official minority, and so for the MRCs, there's no reflex in our policy, in legislation at the municipal level, to include just a thought for the minority language community when anything is developed. In recent years in the province, much of the spending that has been available at the regional level.... There was a conférence régionale des élus. There was a forum jeunesse. They were available at a regional level. That gave organizations like Townshippers', CASA in the Gaspé, and Neighbours in Rouyn, organizations with a regional mandate, the ability to network and access those opportunities with our francophone counterparts, and they've been abolished since 2015, I think.

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Alupa Clarke

Can we have a last word from you?

12:30 p.m.

Executive Director, Townshippers' Association

Rachel Hunting

Sure. Opportunities like that are a really good way just to have the community present and at the table.

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Alupa Clarke

Mr. Généreux, you have the floor for six minutes.

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

Bernard Généreux Conservative Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Since the beginning, we have often come back to clarifying words, because we know that words are important in legislation. What has sort of always caught my attention is the “positive measures”. Depending on where you are and from which angle you look at things, inevitably you may find that some are positive or some are not. The term is very broad, and it can allow for different factors, which can include or exclude things.

In fact, when I sit on this committee, I always wonder what we are going to achieve. We must achieve something that is clear, precise, and that we are able to define. Would it be possible to do that, or would you still like to see some flexibility in the terminology in the new act that may or may not be adopted?

That's a huge question, isn't it?

12:30 p.m.

President, Quebec Community Groups Network

Geoffrey Chambers

In terms of drafting the act, we're willing to participate. We have lawyers. We can define precisely what we want and, if you wish, we can submit a brief on it.

We are in the process of drafting a document on our position in general. We have the wording for general principles, but not for the specifics.

12:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Alupa Clarke

We invite you to send us that document.

12:35 p.m.

Director General, Quebec Community Groups Network

Sylvia Martin-Laforge

It's a fine line between specifics and ambiguity. The law gives you as much as you can. It's in the modalities and the regulation. There's law, and then there's a regulation, and then there are the guidelines.

We have a law. What are the regulations? What are the guidelines that ministries can use? I'm not sure that the federal government has figured out quite how to get from there to the third tier, to where you can be as precise as you need to be within a frame.

12:35 p.m.

President, Quebec Community Groups Network

Geoffrey Chambers

Here are some possible examples. The matter that's currently before the courts in British Columbia could be resolved by legislation. The powers of the commissioner are defined vaguely, and we could give you some specific details in regard to those matters.

The list probably is much longer, and if you assign us the task of coming up with specific recommendations, we will certainly do so, but right now we're at the ideas level.