Evidence of meeting #51 for Official Languages in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was information.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Connie Graziadei  Assistant Chief Statistician, Census, Operations and Communications, Statistics Canada
Johanne Denis  Director General, Census Subject Matter, Social and Demographic Statistics, Statistics Canada
Larry Shute  Deputy Director General, Economic Research and Policy Analysis Branch, Strategic Policy Sector, Department of Industry
Ronald Bisson  Senior Manager, Réseau national de formation en justice
Karine McLaren  Director, Centre de traduction et de terminologie juridiques, Faculté de droit, Université de Moncton, and member, Réseau national de formation en justice
Rénald Rémillard  Director General, Centre canadien de français juridique inc. et Fédération des associations de juristes d'expression française de common law inc., and member, Réseau national de formation en justice

11:45 a.m.

Director General, Census Subject Matter, Social and Demographic Statistics, Statistics Canada

Johanne Denis

There are several ways to do testing.

For my part, I believe strongly in initial qualitative tests, which may take the form of discussion groups, cognitive tests, or one-on-one tests. There is a great deal of work that can be done at the cognitive level by using representative samples, among other things.

The big content test, in 2019, is also intended to be operational. It will allow us to know if we can implement these questions and apply them to the entire population.

There is therefore an iterative process, and we are putting time into it. We will perhaps do a second quantitative test; that is what we are examining. It is all woven into the schedule up to now.

11:45 a.m.

Liberal

René Arseneault Liberal Madawaska—Restigouche, NB

All right, but if the 2019 test is not conclusive, you would have to do your homework again to prepare another test. Is there not a risk of missing 2021 that way? Do you believe you will have enough time? That is what I want to hear from Statistics Canada.

11:45 a.m.

Assistant Chief Statistician, Census, Operations and Communications, Statistics Canada

Connie Graziadei

We are going to examine all approaches to confirm which one is the best to obtain the information required under the law.

11:45 a.m.

Director General, Census Subject Matter, Social and Demographic Statistics, Statistics Canada

Johanne Denis

There is the census, but there are also other means. All of this must be done simultaneously. We must not wait to see that it is not working and then have to change tack and do things differently. We have an obligation, and we our meeting it. We are also going to examine the court's decisions. We recognize that this is extremely important.

11:50 a.m.

Liberal

René Arseneault Liberal Madawaska—Restigouche, NB

For how long has that been recognized at Statistics Canada?

11:50 a.m.

Director General, Census Subject Matter, Social and Demographic Statistics, Statistics Canada

Johanne Denis

We have always recognized the importance of linguistic data.

11:50 a.m.

Liberal

René Arseneault Liberal Madawaska—Restigouche, NB

You speak in general terms, but I want to know how long Statistics Canada, since the Mahé case, has recognized that the enumeration of rights-holders is a constitutional obligation under section 23 of the charter? How is it that this information has still not been collected?

Since when have you recognized that this is important? That is what I want to know in the first place.

11:50 a.m.

Director General, Census Subject Matter, Social and Demographic Statistics, Statistics Canada

Johanne Denis

Work was done in 1993 and in 1998 to test some questions, as you already know. This has been mentioned several times, and I said it in my statement also. Unfortunately, the tests were not conclusive at the time. Looking at things today, we are examining what we can do for the future.

11:50 a.m.

Liberal

René Arseneault Liberal Madawaska—Restigouche, NB

Mr. Shute, I am going to repeat the question of Mr. Choquette. This worries me greatly, and I would like to have a clear answer.

Am I correct in believing that, prior to this year, the department did not indicate to you the importance of complying with the constitutional obligations under section 23 of the charter in order to determine the number of rights-holders? Did I understand your testimony correctly?

11:50 a.m.

Deputy Director General, Economic Research and Policy Analysis Branch, Strategic Policy Sector, Department of Industry

Larry Shute

I'm not sure what you're asking me exactly. Is it whether the department is telling me what I should be aware of?

11:50 a.m.

Liberal

René Arseneault Liberal Madawaska—Restigouche, NB

For how long has Statistics Canada been telling you that this issue is urgent? When did you receive instructions from the department to that effect?

11:50 a.m.

Deputy Director General, Economic Research and Policy Analysis Branch, Strategic Policy Sector, Department of Industry

Larry Shute

No. I have not had any instructions, but in the course of the past few weeks and months we've been having discussions with Statistics Canada about this issue.

11:50 a.m.

Liberal

René Arseneault Liberal Madawaska—Restigouche, NB

Has no one—

11:50 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Denis Paradis

I am sorry, Mr. Arseneault, but I must now give the floor to someone else.

Mr. Albas, you have the floor.

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm very pleased to be here today.

Thank you for the work you do for Canadians and for your appearance before this committee.

I would like to ask you some questions about the 2006 Survey on the Vitality of Official-Language Minorities, or the SVOLM.

This survey provided probative data on education in the language of the minority. Was this data taken into account by the provincial and territorial governments as well as by the minority school boards?

11:50 a.m.

Director General, Census Subject Matter, Social and Demographic Statistics, Statistics Canada

Johanne Denis

Do you want to know if the data were used?

I am sorry, I do not understand your question.

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC

Yes, that is what I want to know.

11:50 a.m.

Director General, Census Subject Matter, Social and Demographic Statistics, Statistics Canada

Johanne Denis

Yes, the data were widely used and are still used a lot today. That is the most comprehensive survey we have ever done on languages in Canada. It allowed us to collect very detailed data on minority communities.

This survey proved to be a great success, and the data are still used today. Unfortunately, we have not done another survey of this type, but we would very much like to, because it provides a great deal of information on all the communities.

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC

Thank you for your answer.

Can the SVOLM data be used by a provincial or territorial government or a minority school board to determine the number of rights-holders?

11:50 a.m.

Director General, Census Subject Matter, Social and Demographic Statistics, Statistics Canada

Johanne Denis

I am not familiar with all the details of this survey. Mr. Corbeil would be the best person to answer your question. However, I can say that it is certain that this survey can be used by the provinces.

I am sorry that I cannot offer you more information on the communities. We could obtain this information and send it to you later.

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC

Excellent. Thank you.

In his appearance before the committee, Mr. Corbeil talked about various possible options other than the census in order to enumerate the rights-holders. He talked about a post-census survey, but also about "the provinces' administrative files".

Can you explain to us what that means?

11:55 a.m.

Director General, Census Subject Matter, Social and Demographic Statistics, Statistics Canada

Johanne Denis

Statistics Canada has a Centre for Education Statistics. As you know, education falls under provincial jurisdiction. The role of Statistics Canada is to work with the provinces and territories to collect and provide harmonized Canada-wide data on education. This is a successful partnership that is working very well.

There is a survey on elementary and secondary education that collects information on enrolments in schools. This survey is conducted annually. Each province and territory provides this data, and we then compile and harmonize the concepts using this survey. I believe this is a significant source of information to determine the number of rights-holders. We could work with the provinces and territories to have them add this information to their administrative system. In this way, we could have information about school boards. I consider this an extremely attractive approach.

At Statistics Canada, we are working extremely hard in terms of the administrative data. In fact, this is one of our priorities. This allows us to obtain much more accurate data with a very detailed breakdown by geographic location, but also to harmonize the data and reduce the response burden for Canadians. We have a lot of success using administrative data. This allows us to link this data to data from other sources in order to enrich the study of a given phenomenon.

11:55 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Denis Paradis

Thank you very much.

Thank you very much, Mr. Albas.

Before concluding, I would like to make a few comments.

First, I will follow up a bit on what Mr. Samson was saying at the beginning. I am concerned to detect, at least in your text, a resistance to take the necessary measures with regard to section 23 of the charter and the rights-holders. That worries me personally.

Second, you mention that you are examining the requests, that you are consulting with people, and so on. I believe that before doing all that, you have the legal obligation to comply with section 23 of the charter. This legal obligation must be met before carrying out the consultations or examining the requests. This is a legal obligation you have.

Third, a scenario occurred to me when you said you were going to present your recommendations to the cabinet in fall and winter 2019. I just want to remind you that we will then be in the middle of an electoral campaign, if I am not mistaken. In the middle of an electoral campaign, I suppose it is easier to bring recommendations to cabinet, since some will have concerns other than approving questions.

11:55 a.m.

Liberal

Linda Lapointe Liberal Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC

You make an interesting comment, Mr. Chair.

11:55 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Denis Paradis

So I find all this puzzling. It is rare for me to interject when the committee's time with a panel of witnesses has come to an end, but I want to tell you that your testimony is puzzling to me in a number of respects.

In closing, thank you for your appearance in any case.

Do you want to add something, Mr. Samson?