Evidence of meeting #56 for Official Languages in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was judges.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Stephen Thompson  Director, Strategic Policy, Research and Public Affairs, Quebec Community Groups Network
Michael Bergman  President, Association of English speaking Jurists of Quebec
Caroline Pellerin  Director, Infojustice Manitoba
Michel Doucet  Professor, Director, International Observatory on Language Rights, Université de Moncton, As an Individual

11 a.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative John Nater

Good morning.

Order, please.

Welcome to our 56th meeting of the Standing Committee on Official Languages.

We welcome Mr. Donnelly, Ms. Dabrusin, Mr. Gerretsen, and Ms. Ratansi, who are joining our wonderful committee. It's nice to see a few new faces around the table when some of our permanent members are unable to join us.

This morning we'll begin with our two witnesses, Mr. Thompson and Mr. Bergman. Mr. Thompson represents the Quebec Community Groups Network, and Mr. Bergman represents the Association of English speaking Jurists of Quebec. I understand that together you have prepared 10 minutes of opening comments. Following that, we'll go to questions from the committee.

The floor is yours for 10 minutes.

11 a.m.

Stephen Thompson Director, Strategic Policy, Research and Public Affairs, Quebec Community Groups Network

Good morning, everyone. There are some new faces, so I'll explain that the Quebec Community Groups Network is a not-for-profit organization that represents Canada's English linguistic minority communities, which we refer to collectively as the English-speaking community in Quebec. There are just over one million Canadians in our community, and as I said, our official language minority community is located in Quebec.

Good morning, Mr. Nater, Mr. Donnelly, and members of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Official Languages. I'm sorry, I didn't know Mr. Choquette wasn't going to be here.

We're very pleased to be here today to provide evidence in the committee's study of the full implementation of the Official Languages Act in the Canadian justice system. We're also happy to be joined at the table by the Association of English speaking Jurists of Quebec. I'll be very brief in our opening remarks to allow Michael Bergman to introduce the association and its future plans.

Our community is very excited about the promise of an organic access-to-justice capacity. Please note that the QCGN has submitted a detailed brief that provides commentary on the topics under the committee's consideration. I'll outline the brief's main points now and will look forward to answering your questions.

Just to touch on a few points on the Supreme Court of Canada judicial appointment process, the QCGN supports a process for appointing Supreme Court of Canada justices that is transparent, inclusive, and accountable to Canadians. Incidentally, we have also supported, and will continue to support, legislation that would make functional bilingualism without the aid of an interpreter a requirement for appointment to the Supreme Court of Canada.

There are two principal reasons that we support a bilingual capacity in all Canadian courts, and a bilingual superior court and court of appeal judiciary. First, where rights exist, there must be a systemic capacity for justices to hear cases and render decisions in both official languages. Second, the language skills of judges at this level must be sufficient to ensure stare decisis in the evolution of Canadian law. Maître Bergman can expand on this point.

We have three thoughts on access to justice. First, possessing rights and having a bilingual judiciary is of limited value if the infrastructure surrounding access to justice is not able to operate to provide services in both official languages. Second, we need a shared definition for access to justice, especially when discussing and developing evidence-based public policy. Finally, we need stable programming seed money from Justice Canada to help develop the association.

We are very concerned about the application of the Official Languages Act in Canada's correctional system. A recent visit to the Correctional Service of Canada's federal training centre in Laval was troubling. We witnessed prima facie violations of the act that we have every reason to believe are systemic in nature and therefore likely affecting English and French minority inmates in other institutions. Our concerns are detailed in our brief and may warrant a separate visit to the committee.

It is now my pleasure to introduce Maître Michael Bergman from the Association of English speaking Jurists of Quebec.

April 11th, 2017 / 11:05 a.m.

Michael Bergman President, Association of English speaking Jurists of Quebec

Thank you very much, Stephen.

Thank you for the opportunity to address the committee this morning.

I am a firm believer that an organization that has more than three words in its name is extremely important. Therefore, you have two very important witnesses before you.

The association first came to life in August 2016. We are a johnny-come-lately, as they say en bon anglais. Our colleagues in the rest of the country, lawyers and jurists of the francophone language, have long had associations to advocate, lobby, and research on behalf of their communities. The English-speaking community in Quebec has only recently become organized in this regard, partly because of the nature of that community.

Colleagues of mine, a number of lawyers and I, co-founded the association less than one year ago. We recognized that there's a serious problem with access to justice in the English language in Quebec; namely, it is in decline, exponentially so as the years pass, and will continue to decline. The average English-speaking citizen in Quebec has more and more difficulty interfacing with the system at all levels, including federal, in the English language. If this is not abated, if ways are not found to improve access to justice in English, then the system of English language representation and the ability of the citizen to speak in English before any instance administrative or tribunal in Quebec will gradually fade away.

This extends to other issues, too. Our Court of Appeal in Quebec is renowned for its judgments in constitutional law, human rights, administrative law, and diverse areas of the law, but in the rest of Canada, very few lawyers or judges have any idea what the Court of Appeal has said, because other than 6% of the judgments of the Court of Appeal, all of the rest, 94%, are in the French language. There are not the funds or the translation services to render these judgments into official English. So you do have anomalies where a court of appeal in another province says x when the Court of Appeal in Quebec already said y. That is not good for this country.

You will notice that the association did not submit a brief to you for this morning. That is unfortunate, but not an accident. The reason is simple. Having just started, we are a group of volunteers. We are lawyers. We are practising lawyers. We've only recently, in January of this year, received some program funding, $77,000, from Justice Canada. Most of that is for preliminary research. Research is important. Research gives us empirical data. It gives us facts, the ability to advocate based on the truth. We have no core funding. We can't hire an executive director. We have no permanent structure. We need that desperately. Funding for the association, and any group of our nature, needs a core funding program. This is true not only in Quebec, but in every single part of this great country. Absent that, we are dedicated volunteers, but there are only so many hours in the day, as I think members of Parliament here know all too well.

What is the consequence of the decline of the use of English in access to the justice system throughout Quebec? This decline is pernicious. It will have important structural effects in the future over generational time. If English goes into decline as an official minority language in the justice system in Quebec, sooner or later the rest of the country is going to say that if one of the pillars of our duality is now in decline, what about the other pillar, francophones outside Quebec? Slowly we will inadvertently, unfortunately and tragically evolve into a country where justice is rendered in Quebec in French and the rest of the country in English.

This is wrong. This must be stopped. We need more legislation. We need funding. The federal government, the Parliament of Canada, has an important role in this. It is not simply symbolic. It's implementing programs and legislation that recognize that in modern society, in the 21st century, every citizen has the important right, the liberty, the freedom, the individuality, to approach justice in his or her mother official tongue. Failing that, we fail our companions and colleagues throughout this country.

I'm certainly open to questions. Five minutes is a short time to try to get in a lot of words and a lot of important ideas, but as I said, we have more than three words in our name. You noticed I said only “association”. I didn't say “Association of English speaking Jurists of Quebec Inc.”

Thank you very much.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative John Nater

Thank you, Mr. Bergman and Mr. Thompson. We appreciate the comments thus far.

We will move to our rounds of questioning, beginning with Mr. Généreux for six minutes.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Bernard Généreux Conservative Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank the witnesses for being here this morning. This is very interesting.

Mr. Bergman, you've surprised me quite a bit by saying that access to justice in English in Montreal is declining steeply. I am really surprised by that. Do you mean that this decline began a long time ago? What makes you say that there is less access to justice in English in Montreal now than there was in the past?

11:10 a.m.

President, Association of English speaking Jurists of Quebec

Michael Bergman

You used a very important word: “Montreal”. Actually, I'm talking about Quebec, all of Quebec, all regions, including major centres. It is clear in the regions that the use of English before the courts is in significant decline, as is the bilingualism of judges, clerks, administrative judges, authorities, officials and the court administrative staff. In my experience, even in Montreal, in the Montreal administrative tribunals, it is a matter of courtesy.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Bernard Généreux Conservative Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC

Of courtesy?

11:10 a.m.

President, Association of English speaking Jurists of Quebec

Michael Bergman

Yes, of courtesy. Most of the administrative judges appointed by Quebec are not bilingual. Even at the superior court, where judges are appointed by the federal government, they may speak in English from time to time, but all rulings are in French. I even have some examples where all the parties are anglophone, but the court rulings are in French. It's too bad, because some people can't read the legal jargon in French. In fact, it isn't even the same thing as when we're chatting amongst ourselves in a bar or somewhere. So we have to request a translation. However, it takes at least six months for the system to give us a translation. So it's impossible. I have to have documents translated for my clients, at my expense, and the translation isn't official.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Bernard Généreux Conservative Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC

Mr. Thompson, you said that you went to a centre in Laval. Was it a detention centre? You talked about Laval earlier, but I misunderstood where you were. You've been able to observe certain things.

11:15 a.m.

President, Association of English speaking Jurists of Quebec

Michael Bergman

He was visiting; he wasn't the one incarcerated.

11:15 a.m.

Some hon. members

Oh, oh!

11:15 a.m.

Director, Strategic Policy, Research and Public Affairs, Quebec Community Groups Network

Stephen Thompson

Not this time.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Bernard Généreux Conservative Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC

Remind me of the facts.

11:15 a.m.

Director, Strategic Policy, Research and Public Affairs, Quebec Community Groups Network

Stephen Thompson

This is a very complicated issue. I want to make clear from the beginning that the leadership of the correctional service in the Quebec region was proactive in establishing a relationship with our community. They are very concerned with their linguistic responsibilities and looking for a way to fulfill them. This is not a case of their not wanting to do it. They really want to do it. They just don't know how.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Bernard Généreux Conservative Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC

We're talking about federal correctional institutions.

11:15 a.m.

Director, Strategic Policy, Research and Public Affairs, Quebec Community Groups Network

Stephen Thompson

Right. I'll give you some examples of what we saw. We visited one housing unit where none of the guards spoke English. They weren't able to communicate in English at all. Think about that as an—

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Bernard Généreux Conservative Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC

Is it because they didn't want to or because they—

11:15 a.m.

Director, Strategic Policy, Research and Public Affairs, Quebec Community Groups Network

Stephen Thompson

They weren't able to. It isn't a question of motivation. They were simply unable to.

For Correctional Service Canada in the Quebec region, only 2.9% of its employees are English-speaking Quebecers. It's very difficult for it to attract English speakers to work in the institutions. More important and more concerning for us was that, once you're a guard, you get $800 a year for your bilingualism bonus, but because there are so few programs available for English-speaking inmates, the work load for those guards is much higher than the work loads for guards working with French-speaking inmates. So, guards who are in a bilingual position actively seek unilingual positions. It's not worth their time to take the $800 for the reduced work load. There are actually systemic disincentives for guards to work in both official languages.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Bernard Généreux Conservative Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC

What would you suggest?

11:15 a.m.

Director, Strategic Policy, Research and Public Affairs, Quebec Community Groups Network

Stephen Thompson

First of all, it's a very complicated system. There are programs within the institutions. There are programs delivered by Correctional Service Canada. There are programs delivered by the local college and the local school boards. A lot of the programs are volunteer-driven, such as Alcoholics Anonymous, Cocaine Anonymous, all of their sports events, and those sorts of activities. Those are all run by volunteers. They don't know any English volunteers. They don't have English volunteers to run those things. It's a very complicated problem.

What do I suggest? I suggest there might be a national study and a national approach for Correctional Service Canada to make sure it's able to live up to its official languages obligations. There's a problem there.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Bernard Généreux Conservative Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC

Thank you very much.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative John Nater

Thank you, Mr. Généreux.

Ms. Lapointe, you have six minutes.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Linda Lapointe Liberal Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Welcome. Thank you very much for being here.

I'll talk to you about the same subject as my colleague Mr. Généreux did.

Which detention centres in Laval did you visit? Did you visit Leclerc Institution or the Federal Training Centre? Did you visit the institution in Sainte-Anne-des-Plaines? They are all federal detention centres.

11:15 a.m.

Director, Strategic Policy, Research and Public Affairs, Quebec Community Groups Network

Stephen Thompson

It's the Federal Training Centre.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Linda Lapointe Liberal Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC

At the centre, were there a lot of inmates who, of Canada's two official languages, spoke only English?