Evidence of meeting #58 for Official Languages in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was catsa.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Ghislaine Saikaley  Interim Commissioner, Office of the Commissioner of Official Languages
Pascale Giguère  Director and General Counsel, Legal Affairs Branch, Office of the Commissioner of Official Languages
Mary Donaghy  Assistant Commissioner, Policy and Communications Branch, Office of the Commissioner of Official Languages
Jean Marleau  Acting Assistant Commissioner, Compliance Assurance Branch, Office of the Commissioner of Official Languages

11:40 a.m.

Mary Donaghy Assistant Commissioner, Policy and Communications Branch, Office of the Commissioner of Official Languages

I am going to add a comment.

On the subject of the official languages action plan, Mr. Fraser, the former commissioner, wrote to Minister Joly a number of times to explain his priorities. He focused on more social issues, including education.

11:40 a.m.

Conservative

Bernard Généreux Conservative Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC

Training.

11:40 a.m.

Assistant Commissioner, Policy and Communications Branch, Office of the Commissioner of Official Languages

Mary Donaghy

Yes, training.

So he did not focus so much on matters of access to justice. In his opinion, the most important thing was for the current government to consider all the recommendations that were in the 2013 report. He was very aware of the delay on the part of the former government, for which it was not a priority. That is the background of the last action plan. Access to justice remains a priority, but the commissioner chose to put the emphasis elsewhere.

11:45 a.m.

Conservative

Bernard Généreux Conservative Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC

At the moment, the access to justice in both official languages support fund basically rests on two pillars: information and training. In your opinion, are the features of the fund sufficient to cover all the needs in terms of access to justice?

11:45 a.m.

Interim Commissioner, Office of the Commissioner of Official Languages

Ghislaine Saikaley

Are you talking about the new program?

11:45 a.m.

Conservative

Bernard Généreux Conservative Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC

Yes. I am talking about the access to justice in both official languages support fund.

11:45 a.m.

Interim Commissioner, Office of the Commissioner of Official Languages

Ghislaine Saikaley

A number of significant initiatives dealing with access to justice in both official languages have been undertaken with help from the support fund. We hear that they are—

11:45 a.m.

Conservative

Bernard Généreux Conservative Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC

Can I assume they are still underfunded?

11:45 a.m.

Interim Commissioner, Office of the Commissioner of Official Languages

Ghislaine Saikaley

Well, we have been told that the initiatives have been able to improve the situation, but, of course, there is still some way to go. The commissioner spoke about the progress that we have seen with judges and with all the people working in the justice system. In spite of that, the community feels that efforts must still be made to improve the situation.

11:45 a.m.

Conservative

Bernard Généreux Conservative Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC

Okay.

So now I come to the burning question, just like on Tout le monde en parle.

No one can be against motherhood and apple pie, and I agree that the judges of the Supreme Court of Canada must be bilingual. However, in my opinion, there is a fundamental difference between a judge who is perfectly bilingual and a judge who is functionally bilingual. At the moment, the government wants to appoint judges who are functionally bilingual.

Do you distinguish between a judge who is perfectly bilingual and a judge who is functionally bilingual? If a judge is functionally bilingual, is that enough for him or her to sit on the Supreme Court of Canada?

According to the government's definition, a functionally bilingual judge is able to understand French and English but is not necessarily able to speak French and English. I stand to be corrected if that is not the case. Personally, I would not consider a judge like that to be bilingual. That's my opinion, but I would like to know yours.

11:45 a.m.

Interim Commissioner, Office of the Commissioner of Official Languages

Ghislaine Saikaley

As I said earlier, we are talking about the right to be heard and understood without the aid of an interpreter. So it could certainly be that judges may understand very well when litigants speak to them in an official language other than their own. But they might have difficulty speaking in that other languages. So, as you said, that person should still be bilingual enough to be able to ask clarification questions, if needed, in order to understand fully.

11:45 a.m.

Conservative

Bernard Généreux Conservative Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC

As I see it, a person who is bilingual enough is not the same thing as a person who is perfectly bilingual. Please forgive me, Mr. Chair, but I am forced to say that repeatedly.

I understand the ambition, the objective, the dream of having a country that is fully bilingual from one end to the other. We all dream of that. We all dream of having perfectly bilingual judges, not only in the Supreme Court, but in all courts all over Canada. That would be just great. It would be great if God were bilingual too. I don't know whether He is, but we hope to find out that He is when we get up there. If so, all would be right with the world.

As you pointed out just now, this exception was created because, once, you could practically count on the fingers of two hands the number of perfectly bilingual judges from an English-speaking province. That may not quite be the reality today. Since 1988, society has evolved, and bilingualism has made strides in Canada, it must be said.

Does that reality justify our enshrining in Canadian legislation the obligation to choose a candidate who may be a little less qualified but who is bilingual? Is the legislation going to force us at some stage to choose, not a more qualified candidate, but another bilingual candidate who does not even have to be perfectly bilingual? He or she could be functionally bilingual, which could turn out not to be enough in certain cases, as you say. Do you understand what I mean?

11:45 a.m.

Interim Commissioner, Office of the Commissioner of Official Languages

11:45 a.m.

Conservative

Bernard Généreux Conservative Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC

At some stage, we are going to have to choose. If we want bilingual judges, they are going to have to be really bilingual, not just half bilingual.

11:45 a.m.

Interim Commissioner, Office of the Commissioner of Official Languages

Ghislaine Saikaley

As I understand it, the new questions that will be put to candidates for judges' positions in superior courts will ask whether they are capable of carrying on a discussion or a debate in English or French. Actually, I have the questions here. Candidates are asked whether, “without further training” they are “able to read and understand court documents”, “able to discuss legal matters with [their] colleagues”, “able to converse with counsel in court” and “able to understand oral submissions in court”.

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

Bernard Généreux Conservative Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC

I am not a lawyer, but my answer to all those questions would be yes. However, I know full well that I am not bilingual.

11:50 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Denis Paradis

Thank you, Mr. Généreux.

Mr. Arseneault, you have two minutes.

11:50 a.m.

Liberal

René Arseneault Liberal Madawaska—Restigouche, NB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I think we have looked at the matter from all angles.

I always put myself in the shoes of the average Canadian going to the post office in a little village like mine to buy a stamp. The employee who sells the stamp has to be bilingual.

It is a huge leap to go from that example of the postal employee selling the stamp to talk about the issue of bilingual judges on the Supreme Court of Canada.

Do you know how many years, on average, judges sit on the Supreme Court of Canada? Do you have that figure?

11:50 a.m.

Director and General Counsel, Legal Affairs Branch, Office of the Commissioner of Official Languages

Pascale Giguère

No. Generally, judges are appointed at a point in their careers when they already have a number of years of experience.

11:50 a.m.

Liberal

René Arseneault Liberal Madawaska—Restigouche, NB

I would say that, on average, they are 55 to 60 years old, and they sit until they are 75.

11:50 a.m.

Director and General Counsel, Legal Affairs Branch, Office of the Commissioner of Official Languages

Pascale Giguère

Yes, retirement is mandatory when they reach 75.

11:50 a.m.

Liberal

René Arseneault Liberal Madawaska—Restigouche, NB

Using a conservative estimate, let's say that judges have an average of 20 years of experience.

How many judges are there on the Supreme Court?

11:50 a.m.

Voices

Nine.

11:50 a.m.

Liberal

René Arseneault Liberal Madawaska—Restigouche, NB

So, nine times 20 years.

I think of all the French-language law faculties that have popped up and all the new lawyers practising in both official languages. These days, all over Canada, there are bilingual faculties, French-speaking faculties and English-speaking faculties. We also have at least one French-language legal terminology centre for common law, a laboratory for specific terminology.

Does that all mean that the situation today is completely different than in 1988, when the Supreme Court of Canada was excluded from any requirement for bilingual judges?

11:50 a.m.

Interim Commissioner, Office of the Commissioner of Official Languages

Ghislaine Saikaley

I think it does. We certainly do have to consider the current situation.