Evidence of meeting #59 for Official Languages in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was students.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Cynthia Baker  Executive Director, Canadian Association of Schools of Nursing
Pierre Godbout  Director, School of Nursing, Université de Moncton
Michelle Lalonde  Assistant Professor, School of Nursing, University of Ottawa
Suzie Durocher-Hendriks  Assistant Professor, School of Nursing, Edmundston Campus, Université de Moncton
Sylvie Larocque  Director, School of Nursing, Laurentian University
Brent Knowles  Director, Analytics and Research, College of Nurses of Ontario
Laurie Janes  Executive Director, Nurses Association of New Brunswick

12:10 p.m.

NDP

François Choquette NDP Drummond, QC

So you are told that francophones are the issue.

12:10 p.m.

Executive Director, Canadian Association of Schools of Nursing

Dr. Cynthia Baker

We are told that it is because the francophones aren't as good that they have a higher failure rate on the exam.

12:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Denis Paradis

Thank you very much.

We will now hear from our next speaker, Paul Lefebvre, the member for Sudbury.

Incidentally, I would like to thank Mr. Lefebvre for submitting the problem we are currently discussing to the committee, and for having suggested that you appear before us this morning.

Mr. Lefebvre has the floor.

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Lefebvre Liberal Sudbury, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to continue discussing the recommendations.

We understand the problem well. We have gotten to a point where many students who have taken their nursing studies in French no longer want to take the exam in French. The situation has snowballed, naturally. When the others notice that more and more French-speaking students are deciding to take their exam in English, they are less inclined to do their training in French.

At Laurentian University and at the University of Moncton, how many students registered for the French-language nursing program over the past few years?

12:15 p.m.

Director, School of Nursing, Université de Moncton

Pierre Godbout

Every year, in New Brunswick, about 100 to 125 students graduate, on average. There are 49 students in Bathurst, 80 in Moncton and about twenty in Edmundston.

12:15 p.m.

Assistant Professor, School of Nursing, Edmundston Campus, Université de Moncton

Suzie Durocher-Hendriks

This year there were 22 students in Edmundston.

12:15 p.m.

Director, School of Nursing, Université de Moncton

Pierre Godbout

Those are rounded figures. About 60% of these cohorts receive diplomas.

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Lefebvre Liberal Sudbury, ON

You said that there were 125 students a year, is that correct?

12:15 p.m.

Director, School of Nursing, Université de Moncton

Pierre Godbout

Yes, approximately.

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Lefebvre Liberal Sudbury, ON

It's a four-year program, so that means there are more than 500 nursing students.

12:15 p.m.

Director, School of Nursing, Université de Moncton

12:15 p.m.

Assistant Professor, School of Nursing, Edmundston Campus, Université de Moncton

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Lefebvre Liberal Sudbury, ON

How many are there at Laurentian University?

12:15 p.m.

Director, School of Nursing, Laurentian University

Sylvie Larocque

Approximately 200 students take the program in French. Between 30 and 50 students will graduate.

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Lefebvre Liberal Sudbury, ON

How many are there at the University of Ottawa?

12:15 p.m.

Assistant Professor, School of Nursing, University of Ottawa

Michelle Lalonde

At the University of Ottawa, we have between 70 and 90 graduates every year.

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Lefebvre Liberal Sudbury, ON

On the whole, then, about a thousand students have chosen to do their studies in French.

We need to consider the potential impact on access to French-language health care if the problem persists. My colleague Mr. Arseneault talked about it. I, too, have heard real stories about nurses who did not want to take the exam in French. We all know what happens next: they will no longer want to study in French.

What does this mean for you, who are on the front lines?

12:15 p.m.

Assistant Professor, School of Nursing, Edmundston Campus, Université de Moncton

Suzie Durocher-Hendriks

For Edmundston, which is a very francophone region, it would mean no longer having a nursing campus or training program. Since most of our students are not functionally bilingual, it isn't realistic to think that they would just go to another university. Of course, they could all go to Moncton, but enrolment in those programs is also limited. So it would have serious economic repercussions for our region and our campus.

What's more, our region has a hospital and provides public health network services, so it is imperative that services be available in French. You can imagine the impact that a lack of nursing graduates who are certified would have on services. We are currently dealing with a significant shortage, and the situation is going to get worse over the next five years.

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Lefebvre Liberal Sudbury, ON

I'd like to pick up on your recommendations. I think this is something that will be addressed by the next panel of witnesses we will be hearing from today: the impasse on this issue.

I want to make sure I have this straight. You are recommending going back to the Canadian exam, the first exam, because the new exam and its translation have failed your faculties, your students, and Canada's francophone community, in your view.

What is the biggest issue? What needs to be done to fix the situation?

12:15 p.m.

Director, School of Nursing, Université de Moncton

Pierre Godbout

Basically, that's what it is.

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Lefebvre Liberal Sudbury, ON

I'd like it repeated so that it is crystal clear.

12:15 p.m.

Director, School of Nursing, Université de Moncton

Pierre Godbout

It's very important to mention that, even though more and more students are taking the exam in English, the pass rates aren't any better. It is in no way the be-all and end-all, just to be clear. We have the statistics. More francophone students are taking the exam in English, but their pass rates aren't any better. That isn't the way to solve their problem. It's the same situation. I have the statistics here: it's incredible.

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Lefebvre Liberal Sudbury, ON

Even when they take the exam in English, the students aren't any more successful.

12:15 p.m.

Assistant Professor, School of Nursing, Edmundston Campus, Université de Moncton

Suzie Durocher-Hendriks

It doesn't at all guarantee that they will pass. In our region, in northwest New Brunswick, students don't even have the option of taking the exam in English because they aren't sufficiently bilingual that it would boost their chances of passing.

I know that, last summer, two of our students wrote the exam in English and passed, but they were native anglophones, so they were comfortable in English.

We have a French program, but students have to rely on English resources to prepare for the French-language exam, which is very poorly translated. Given that it is not adapted to Canadian French, it does not take into account all of those important language distinctions. It's so bad that students tell us they don't even understand what the question is asking. They read the words but aren't sure what they are being asked. It's not at all familiar to them. What's more, they have studied the terminology in English, so it's extremely difficult for them right from the get-go. Passing isn't easy under those circumstances.

12:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Denis Paradis

Thank you.

We will now travel to Nova Scotia, with Mr. Samson.

You have three minutes, Mr. Samson.