Evidence of meeting #80 for Official Languages in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was rulings.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Sacha Baharmand  Counsel, Official Languages Directorate, Public Law and Legislative Services Sector, Department of Justice
Stephen Zaluski  General Counsel and Director, Judicial Affairs, Courts and Tribunal Policy, Public Law and Legislative Services Sector, Department of Justice
Justice Jacques Fournier  Chief Justice, Superior Court of Québec
Paul-Matthieu Grondin  President of the Quebec Bar, Barreau du Québec

5:05 p.m.

Chief Justice, Superior Court of Québec

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

Linda Lapointe Liberal Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC

However, that's done at a provincial level only. It's not about federal law.

5:05 p.m.

Chief Justice, Superior Court of Québec

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

Linda Lapointe Liberal Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC

Could we set up an organization that does the same thing in terms of federal law? In family law, Quebec has rulings that are not known outside the province, such as those related to bankruptcy.

Earlier, my colleague Mr. Choquette touched on this, but I would like to know how we could go about ensuring that the rulings of the federal courts in Quebec are properly translated and that the rest of Canada can benefit from them. You mentioned SOQUIJ, but are there other ways to go about it?

5:05 p.m.

Chief Justice, Superior Court of Québec

Chief Justice Jacques Fournier

That would be the role of the editorial committee. Law experts, influential lawyers and university professors come together on the committee to analyze the rulings.

I have to say that the work is done at a basic level, because about 80% of rulings are of great interest to those involved in the case, but of no interest for the advancement of the law, here or elsewhere. That's the reality. I say 80%, but it may be 85% or 90%. The rest contains creative, innovative and easy-to-discover solutions. If this becomes SOQUIJ's mission, its editorial committee needs to expand and we have to check with stakeholders what's happening elsewhere in Canada.

I see Mr. Arseneault nodding. That's really how things are in New Brunswick. Rulings can be read in either language. Most lawyers in Acadia and elsewhere in New Brunswick are bilingual, so they don't need translation. They can consult the case law. Mr. Arseneault could talk to you afterwards, in camera, and tell you that Quebec produces good material.

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

Linda Lapointe Liberal Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC

Thank you.

You said that, in Quebec, we could have creative solutions. Do you feel that the rest of Canada wants to understand the creativity of Quebec judgments?

November 21st, 2017 / 5:05 p.m.

President of the Quebec Bar, Barreau du Québec

Paul-Matthieu Grondin

I will take the liberty of answering that question.

Trust me, the reality is that all the lawyers in Canada are looking for any creative solution they can understand. For the time being, the creative solutions you hear about most often in the rest of Canada are from other provinces, including New Brunswick. You hear a little less about those in Quebec, because they are not translated as often. We would like our creativity to be useful elsewhere as well. And I'm sure that people elsewhere would like to have easier access to our creativity.

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

Linda Lapointe Liberal Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC

Thank you very much.

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Denis Paradis

Thank you, Ms. Lapointe.

Let's move to Nova Scotia, MP Darrell Samson's province.

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

Linda Lapointe Liberal Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC

That's saying a lot.

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

Darrell Samson Liberal Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS

Moving to Nova Scotia is a challenge.

Good evening. Thank you for your presentations.

Mr. Fournier, I think we were at a breakfast or lunch together last year, and you talked about this issue of case law. I don't think there's any doubt about that...

Can you hear me?

5:10 p.m.

Chief Justice, Superior Court of Québec

Chief Justice Jacques Fournier

Yes, yes. I recognize your accent.

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

René Arseneault Liberal Madawaska—Restigouche, NB

He's a character.

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

Darrell Samson Liberal Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS

Thank you.

The question is essential. In terms of the doctrine, you said that the impact of a people and a culture is essential. I think our argument should instead focus on that to convince the federal government or the provincial government, because both levels can play a role in ensuring that the translation is done and up to date.

My colleagues asked about the make-up of an editorial committee. Do we not already have a way of processing rulings according to various themes and therefore determine which ones have a greater impact and should be translated first? Is there not already some work being done that would simplify, if you will, the task of determining which judgments must be translated?

5:10 p.m.

Chief Justice, Superior Court of Québec

Chief Justice Jacques Fournier

I agree with you. I think this idea is promising, but we are truly at the very beginnings, so everything needs to be done. Once there's a willingness to do the translation demonstrated through commitments of material, budgets and personnel, whether made by your committee or someone else, we can find solutions together. We are not being asked to reinvent the wheel. That's already been done. We are going to find solutions.

You are right about the culture. The legal field is in fact part of a people's culture. In a bijural country, it is not right for the culture of a people to be a one-way street.

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

Darrell Samson Liberal Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS

Absolutely.

Mr. Arseneault said that the rulings are translated in New Brunswick. Why is Quebec not doing the same thing?

5:10 p.m.

Chief Justice, Superior Court of Québec

Chief Justice Jacques Fournier

I don't know. At one time, there may have been political reasons and budgetary reasons, of course. Budgetary reasons are still running the show.

The province of Quebec could work with the federal government and come up with a project with the potential to ensure that everything is bilingual. Everyone would come out a winner.

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

Darrell Samson Liberal Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS

I agree with you.

Have any formal requests been made for that? If so, when? How much money has been invested in it?

5:10 p.m.

President of the Quebec Bar, Barreau du Québec

Paul-Matthieu Grondin

There are challenges in Quebec other than the translation of rulings. Even in the legislative process, it isn't clear. In Quebec, legislation isn't co-drafted, like it is at the federal level and in other provinces. It's already a challenge to ensure that our laws are adopted in both official languages in a timely manner.

Of course, we have already asked for more rulings to be translated. As you know, in Quebec and some other provinces, justice is the budget's poor relative. It's hard to be heard before people from health and education, for example. We all have these challenges too. I tip my hat to New Brunswick, which is doing this well.

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

Darrell Samson Liberal Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS

The federal government is talking about working with the provinces. So I think it is a good time for a discussion between Quebec's minister of Justice, the federal Minister of Justice and even the Minister of Canadian Heritage, since it affects the influence of culture. Quebec jurisprudence could influence other cultures. I think it's fundamental in Canada. But there is something about this that doesn't work. If it were presented or sold that way and there were discussions between the departments at different levels of government, I'm sure it would make a difference. It is the 150th anniversary, after all.

There is no reason it can't be determined which rulings are the most important and have the greatest influence. The project should be undertaken collaboratively.

You may have had access to the action plan that was presented in September by the federal Minister of Justice. It talks about the various steps to be taken to ensure that there are bilingual judges, bilingual lawyers, bilingual law firms, and so on. This whole question could be integrated into the essential notion of the influence of a culture or a people. I can't see what's not working, so I encourage people on the ground to deal with it.

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Denis Paradis

Thank you very much, Mr. Samson.

I will now give the floor to Mr. Clarke.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

Alupa Clarke Conservative Beauport—Limoilou, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Fournier and Mr. Grondin, good afternoon. It's an honour to meet you, even though it's by teleconference. My name is Alupa Clarke, and I am the member of Parliament for Beauport—Limoilou, in Quebec.

You spoke about an editorial committee that could select key rulings. I see some danger in that, and I'll explain why.

I think all rulings should be translated systematically. As you well know, judicial activism is a real phenomenon. In criminal law, rulings are more objective, based on facts and hard evidence. Constitutional rulings, however, are something else. Chief Justice, you mentioned a section of the Constitution Act 1867. I love that; I really like to cling to 1867. That said, the editorial committee could engage in judicial activism by choosing rulings favourable to a certain interpretation of the Constitution for the province of Quebec. You see where I'm going.

In this case, how can we trust that this editorial committee won't engage in judicial activism, which we wouldn't want to see happen?

5:15 p.m.

Chief Justice, Superior Court of Québec

Chief Justice Jacques Fournier

First, there is no question that this committee would be infiltrated by judges. We're talking about a committee made up of scientists, university professors, lawyers, and so on. There is no question of judges promoting their ideas. It's forbidden, anyway. We write down our views and sign them.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

Alupa Clarke Conservative Beauport—Limoilou, QC

So it would be a diversified committee where various professions would be represented. Perfect.

5:15 p.m.

Chief Justice, Superior Court of Québec

Chief Justice Jacques Fournier

There would be university professors.