Official Languages Committee on March 2nd, 2018

[François Choquette, NDP, Drummond, QC]

Thank you very much.

I am François Choquette, the MP for Drummond, Quebec. I am the NDP critic for official languages and vice-chair of the Standing Committee on Official Languages. I am a French teacher by training, so I am familiar with the field of education.

You talked about the great importance of early childhood in fighting assimilation. I am disappointed to hear that Saskatchewan has the highest rate of assimilation. So I support your idea of meeting in Saskatoon and Regina. We apologize for not being able to stop there. We also apologize to the francophones of the North; we have not been able to go to the three territories either.

I will be quick because we do not have much time.

My first question is for Mr. Laberge and Mr. Barry.

You said there are bilateral agreements between the federal and provincial governments that include linguistic clauses. You also said, however, that those agreements have limitations. You said they might not be the answer in terms of long-term funding, respect for linguistic duality, and equity, and that they might not guarantee that francophone communities receive their fair share.

Can each of you elaborate on those thoughts please?

[Alpha Barry]

Thank you very much to our Franco-Manitoban friends.

I would like to get back to the main reason we submitted a brief that includes a solution. The solution does not involve clauses. I know our Liberal friends are very proud of their linguistic clauses, and I congratulate them on that and am very grateful, but that does not solve the problem. What we need is a federal act that includes protection and guarantees respect for legislation, the philosophy and the ultimate purpose of section 23 of the charter. Right now, we are at the mercy of politicians. In politics, if a party wants to be re-elected, it has to look after the majority, not the minority. Education in minority communities, which is guaranteed by a constitutional right, is everyone's business.

Personally, I reject the argument that education is under provincial jurisdiction while, on the other hand, the constitution establishes rights, privileges, and an obligation to manage all aspects of language and culture. We might be at the mercy of an anglophone official who does not take part in the community's activities or whose children do not attend French-language schools. Yet it is that person who tells me how to spend the funding allocated to me. It is a joke. To my mind, it is like Nivaquine, a little tablet against malaria: the pill is so bitter that you can't swallow it.

Our schools are grappling with cultural disengagement. We have an outdated school, in the very south end of the city. It has a capacity of 300, but it currently has about 480 students. It no longer has a library because we had to use that space for classrooms. Next year, we expect to have more than 500 students. It is so bad that the students have to line up to use the washroom. It is ridiculous.

Clauses and rules are really not what we need. We need protection that is included in an act in order to recognize the need to consult and to provide accountability. If you send us money, you have to live up to your obligations to us.

We also have to remember that school boards are tired of dragging provincial governments to court. The Official Languages Act can be challenged in court. At some point, we have to see what we can do instead of just whining about it.

I don't know if I have answered your question.

[François Choquette, NDP, Drummond, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Barry.

Unfortunately, time is running out.

[The Chair, Liberal, Denis Paradis]

Thank you very much.

We will now turn to Mr. Laberge. You have the floor for six minutes.

[Alain Laberge]

Perfect.

I would like to add to what Mr. Barry said earlier. I think the problem in Manitoba is something we see right across the country.

I am fortunate to chair the Regroupement national des directions générales de l’éducation au Canada, a national association of school boards. All the provinces have the same problem. You went to British Columbia, and I imagine you heard the same challenges. It is the same thing in Alberta. You will hear the same thing from east to west.

We talked about the Official Languages Act earlier. This act also needs to be given some teeth so it can be enforced and to provide for recourse. Right now, little recourse is available. Should we have recourse to the courts to enforce this act? Strengthening the act is basic, in our opinion.

Second, subsections 23(2) and 23(3) of the charter must be recognized by giving francophones greater recognition in the census. That would provide for a larger francophonie and allow French-language schools to grow. Right now, we have to fight the provincial ministries for recognition of rights holders in locations where we do not have any schools. Yet the solution is simple for anglophones. A new subdivision is built. When children and families move in, an English-language school is built. Those children are probably the children of rights holders, but they will go to an English-language school. So we are losing out there.

The third thing is federal spaces. The federal government gives us money to build daycare centres in our schools or to build spaces. The number of students is rising steadily, but the province gives us minimal infrastructure, that is, a very small school. In most cases, in all the provinces where French-language schools have been built, they were overcrowded even before they opened. What goes by the wayside? It is the daycare centre. There is growth in daycare centres, but we cannot give them any more space in our schools. Where do those children go then? They end up in English-language daycare centres, in anglophone communities, and then make anglophone friends at English-language schools.

The Official Languages Act has to be given some teeth.

[The Chair, Liberal, Denis Paradis]

Thank you very much, Mr. Laberge.

We will now move on to Mr. Samson.

Are you ready, Mr. Samson?

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

I am always ready.

Thank you very much for being here today. We really have a full range of guests.

First, I'd like to introduce myself, even if most of the witnesses know me.

My name is Darrell Samson, and I have been a member of Parliament since 2015. However, my career was in education and so I know the communities, the day cares, the post-secondary institutions, the parents' federations, and the school boards. Before being elected, I was the director general of the only French-language school board in Nova Scotia.

I congratulate you on your commitment and I commend your passion. What is interesting, when you are in a minority situation, is that you must work together much more than others. There is an expression I often use, which is that we have to go to bed later and get up earlier in order to move things forward. I thank you very, very much for your work. There is also another expression I could use: the more you do, the more you see what remains to be done. That's problematic.

The evolution of the situation is interesting. There are some successes, but there is also some wasted time; we are losing some of the children while we wait for French services.

The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms was enacted in 1982, and its section 23 has helped things progress. Around 1990, some French-language school boards were created, which was a huge turning point. Then French-language services started being offered in all of the provinces, with the exception of British Columbia. Yesterday, Nova Scotia announced that the provincial Acadian school board . In my opinion, this is going to change the world. As you have said all morning, this touches on the notion of symmetry and asymmetry and that is where the problem lies.

I have several quick questions for you. I know I've gone on a bit, but some context was necessary.

You spoke about agreements on a language clause. I'll tell you the truth: we have worked hard, and it is not easy to obtain a language clause, because the public servants tell us that does not fall under their jurisdiction. We know that this clause does not go far enough and that we have to make a change to provide greater protection, as it was well explained earlier. We have to amend the Official Languages Act very soon. Certain provinces give more than others, and the challenges are enormous, as you have explained very well.

I am going to try to ask my questions very quickly.

The Official Languages Education Program provides additional funds to improve education in the language of the minority. Would it not be beneficial to also provide additional funds to improve the early childhood French-language services?

The question is addressed to the representatives of both school boards.

[Alain Laberge]

Personally, I think we have to begin by understanding where the OLEP money is going; that would be very important. Barely three months ago, we lost an assistant deputy minister position, in education, which was funded by the federal government. We had been promised that position specifically to move things forward in education, but it was abolished. Where did that money go? We have no idea. We just lost $100,000 or $125,000. In every province, we have no idea where the OLEP money's going. A percentage of that money is intended for us, but we have no idea how it is being spent.

You asked whether funding should be granted for early childhood French-language services. Yes, we totally agree. That should be the case everywhere in Canada, as a minimum.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

That is good because the OLEP aims to enrich the language. It is delivered by the community and for the community, to a certain extent. The money has to reach you. If you had that for early childhood services, that would be ideal.

I am going to move on to something else since my time is passing quickly, but that is very important.

Each province has a lieutenant-governor who represents the Governor General, who represents the Prime Minister of Canada and the government. Perhaps we would need a lieutenant in each province who would ensure that the funds allocated to the provinces for official language minorities arrive at their intended destination, and also that all of the agreements between the federal level and the provinces, not only regarding education, include a guarantee that the funds get directly to the field. That would be key, according to what I understand. There is food for thought here.

We don't have much time, but can you tell us about the strategic agreement signed by the Fédération nationale des conseils scolaires francophones and the federal government? That would be one further step toward a solution. Could we hear from the representatives of both councils on this point?

[Alain Laberge]

It is a good thing that the FNCSF entered into this partnership. However, it does not solve all of the problems, since the Canadian Council of Ministers of Education also has a say in the allocation of federal funds. So everything has to be in context.

If the FNCSF is called on and can take part in discussions, we will know more about how the funds will be distributed from one province to the next. At this time, as you said earlier, some provinces receive 30%, 40% or 50% of the funds, but we've no idea where the money goes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Denis Paradis]

Thank you very much, Mr. Samson.

Mr. Arseneault has the floor.

Could you introduce yourself for the witnesses.

[René Arseneault, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

My name is René Arseneault and I am a proud Acadian from New Brunswick and minority community francophone. I am somewhat lucky because I live in a rather homogeneous region, and the population there is mostly French-speaking. I had the good fortune in my life of knowing several Franco-Manitobans. When I was studying law in Moncton, several Franco-Manitobans were students in that law faculty. I'm thinking, for instance, of Christine Robidoux, the Chartier brothers, Allain Laurencelles and many others in my area of Saint-Boniface, as well as of the people in the francophone villages to the south. There was one in particular whose name escapes me. There were also a few French-speaking Saskatchewanians; Lise Lorain is one young woman I remember well.

I mention this because my questions may be legal in nature. There are other lawyers here. In fact, the first judge from the first cohort of the Moncton University Law Faculty in the beginning of the 1980s, was from Saint-Boniface. That is Mr. Chartier. There is a quite active and present legal community here.

Ms. Cwikla, earlier you were the first to speak of including rights in the act or of amending section 23 of the Charter. Have you read the briefs submitted by the community here on that topic?

[Mélanie Cwikla]

I did not exactly refer to including them in the Constitution or to amending it, but I said that we should ask ourselves whether, given its current form, access to education in the language of the minority applies to the entire education continuum.

To my knowledge, there are no briefs. The only thing I read on this is an article by Mr. Giroux from northern Ontario who spoke about the implicit guarantee of access to post-secondary training in the context of the Constitution. However, if we francophones are to benefit from section 23, they have to have French as a mother tongue.

[René Arseneault, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

As all of you know, section 23 refers to primary and secondary education, but not to preschool or to post-secondary education. So we would need to ensure that the entire education spectrum is included by providing French-language services from early childhood to post-secondary education, inclusively. Have I understood you correctly?

[Mélanie Cwikla]

There would also have to be support for court challenges. It costs money to go and fight for your rights at the Supreme Court. If the government can provide funds to the communities so that they can fight these legal battles, I am sure some will want to wage those battles.

[René Arseneault, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Yes, there are a lot of experts in that area.

The provinces have already gotten involved in several legal contests. The problem is that these battles last 10, 12 years. Even if you win, it then takes that many years again to convince the government to act, particularly in education.

I have a question for the Franco-Saskatchewanian community. In fact, this applies to all of the provinces aside from Quebec. Canada is a big place, the western provinces are immense, and the French-speaking population is dispersed north to south. We went to British Columbia, then Alberta, and we are now here, in Winnipeg. We did not go to Saskatchewan, but you are here to tell us about it. We know our geography. What is the cruel choice we must make to ensure that the rights of the critical mass of francophones are respected? Where do we draw the line regarding services offered, and federal and provincial government funding? How do we make this cruel decision and how do we set limits?

Mr. Gagné, you may answer.

[Alpha Barry]

While Mr. Gagné gets ready, I could answer you.

The solution is very simple, Mr. Arsenault; these are services provided by the community for the community, and the people who do the work have to have a certain zeal, some protection, and some legitimacy. That is what we are proposing; we need to be protected by a provision in a federal act. When something is enshrined in law, it can no longer be changed through administrative means. It proceeds from Parliament, and it becomes public.

When we have the opportunity to present the challenges our communities face and propose solutions, and when we have the means to do that...

[René Arseneault, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

I'll interrupt you, because I would like to hear your definition of a Saskatchewan francophone community. How many French-speaking residents have to live there to be able to say that this is a community that needs a day care and a primary school?

I'm placing myself in the shoes of the minister or public servant in Ottawa who is going to have to make a decision. I'm thinking of section 23 of the Charter, which says ''wherever [...] the number of children is sufficient to warrant'' it.

[Alpha Barry]

Let's take the Franco-Saskatchewanian community as an example. That community is made up of people who live in the French culture on a daily basis, define themselves as francophones, want to live in French and worry about the vitality and permanence of their group. That is a francophone community.

There are francophiles. There are also immersion programs. I always say that immersion programs exist because francophones exist.

[René Arseneault, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Do you have any suggestions that would help us ensure that the federal funds allocated to early childhood or education make it to their intended destinations? We need to know how the funds are managed and administered, if we want to be able to look at data, do calculations and quantify the results. Would you have any potential solutions to suggest in that regard?

[Alpha Barry]

We need a law. It's simple: we need a law.

[René Arseneault, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Yes, but would a law allow us to track funds allocated by Ottawa right up until they are disbursed to a community such as Gravelbourg?

[Alpha Barry]

Let's start with a law that would specify the modalities of accountability, roles and responsibilities. When that law is in place, we can institute an accountability process. This could be done by Canadian Heritage, by an administrative tribunal or by other parties. The lieutenant-governors could see to it. The solutions are many, but we are not there yet.

You must remember that when funds are destined for communities to maintain their vitality, there is a public servant somewhere who decides how that money will be spent. In most cases, that does not meet the needs of the community. That is a problem.

[The Chair, Liberal, Denis Paradis]

Thank you very much, Mr. Barry.

We will conclude with Mrs. Boucher.

You have three minutes.

[Sylvie Boucher, Conservative, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Good morning.

We have been talking a lot about the new Official Languages Act. These days, much is being said about equality between men and women. In the same vein, could it not be possible to have a law that would be strong enough to establish equality between anglophones and francophones? It could be that simple.

Has anyone ever contacted you to ask you to be part of the solution and to contribute to the drafting of a new Official Languages Act? I am referring to all of the francophones, those who are here, but also those in some western regions we visited recently as well as those in the communities to the east. You are the ones who know your own reality best.