Evidence of meeting #4 for Official Languages in the 43rd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was question.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Anil Arora  Chief Statistician of Canada, Statistics Canada
Stéphane Dufour  Assistant Chief Statistician, Census, Regional Services and Operations Sector, Statistics Canada

4:55 p.m.

Bloc

Mario Beaulieu Bloc La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC

My question was not about rights-holders.

I can ask you a question I had prepared. Until 1993, there was a question about where people came from. It showed that about 70% of people of French origin spoke English at home. This gave an idea of the cumulative assimilation and the harm done to French-speaking Acadian communities by all the assimilation laws.

Starting in 1993, you added the “Canadian” category. It totally mixed up the data. You can't get an idea of the breakdown anymore. Anyone, regardless of where they come from, can say they are Canadian. Why did you do that? Would it be possible to go back or adopt a method that would allow us to assess that?

4:55 p.m.

Chief Statistician of Canada, Statistics Canada

Anil Arora

You are talking about ethnicity issues. The formula is based on the percentage of Canadians and the answers they give us. We don't choose the categories on the census, they reflect the responses from the previous census. The ethnic aspect is changing a lot as the years go by. The “Canadian” category was one example we included in the census to reflect responses from the previous census.

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Emmanuel Dubourg

Mr. Arora, thank you very much. Thank you, Mr. Beaulieu.

Mr. Duvall, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

4:55 p.m.

NDP

Scott Duvall NDP Hamilton Mountain, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank all of you for coming here.

Mr. Arora, I know you're on the hot seat. You've really confused me. You have really done a good job.

4:55 p.m.

Chief Statistician of Canada, Statistics Canada

Anil Arora

Let's see if I can fix it up.

4:55 p.m.

NDP

Scott Duvall NDP Hamilton Mountain, ON

Okay.

I asked you earlier about when you're going to put the recommendations to cabinet. If I remember it correctly, you told me that you don't know; it may be a couple of weeks or whatever. My colleague asked when they could provide the questions or they want to change questions. You're saying in a couple of weeks.

It sounds to me like what's going to be on the census forms is already going to be determined. You're going to send it to cabinet and they have no other choice but to accept it. If they do, they do it for the next one over.

That's what I'm hearing here. I'm getting really different answers. It's very frustrating that I asked questions earlier and my colleague asked his questions now, and I'm kind of getting really different points. Then this gentleman here, Mr. Dufour, even said something further, like maybe you can do it in the summer. You don't know when the cabinet dates are, so what is it?

Could you just help me out here?

4:55 p.m.

Chief Statistician of Canada, Statistics Canada

Anil Arora

Let me see if I can just clarify it. As you said, the decision about the content that ultimately lands on the census questionnaire is a decision that's made by Governor in Council, by cabinet and then, subsequent to that decision, is gazetted—30 days, give or take, after that decision is made.

We're in the last stages, because obviously the census is coming up, so it's going to be very shortly that the government is going to have to make that decision about what is the ultimate content of the census. That's not something new. Every five years we do the census; it's at about this time, give or take, that they make the decision on the questionnaire.

Obviously, Statistics Canada, based on the testing we've done, gives our best advice as to what works or not through our testing—through qualitative testing, through the advisory committee that we put together, through the quantitative testing that we've done—and it's ultimately cabinet that says, “Okay, this is a question that we want and this is the content of the census questionnaire” and then we carry it out.

That process hasn't changed and I'm sorry if there's any confusion, but that's the process and that's where we are at this stage. That's why I assume we're here.

5 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Emmanuel Dubourg

I would say that, given the time, we're going to able to do a fourth round, but at two minutes per party. That way, Mr. Arora will be able to answer the questions.

I will first give the floor to Mr. Généreux for two minutes.

5 p.m.

Conservative

Bernard Généreux Conservative Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC

Mr. Arora, I don't know where to begin. I am putting myself in the shoes of the people listening to us today, who are going to hear your expert testimony. I liked what Ms. Lattanzio said earlier about being a lawyer and that the experts we invite are here to give their opinions. Mr. Arseneault asked you for an opinion. When asked whether it would be unreasonable for the government to include the questions in the short form census, you did not answer. You are an expert on the subject, as are your colleagues, and we're asking a question today as parliamentarians. As legislators, we're here to draft and enact legislation. When we ask, you are not in a position to answer a question that I too consider to be relatively simple. As an expert who cares about the situation of rights-holders across Canada, you are not in a position to answer.

Why won't you just say whether or not you think the cabinet should go one way or another to get the best possible data?

5 p.m.

Chief Statistician of Canada, Statistics Canada

Anil Arora

One, our statistical advice is something that the courts ask us, not every day, but from time to time. We go, we defend that advice and we defend our sampling methods. Regardless of what decision gets made on this, we will be there to provide our best statistical advice and stand up for the quality of the data we provide.

5 p.m.

Conservative

Bernard Généreux Conservative Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC

Okay, but you understand that people have wanted data for decades to be able to get the services in their community. Now you're telling me that, when the Supreme Court calls you as a witness, you tell them that you can't just tell a minister or a department to do this or that. We are asking you the question. We are legislators just as much as the minister is.

5 p.m.

Chief Statistician of Canada, Statistics Canada

Anil Arora

As I've said, we will stand behind the quality of the data that Canadians need and that you as legislators need to make important decisions. We have done that for decades and we will continue to do that, sir.

5 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Emmanuel Dubourg

Thank you.

Mr. Samson has the floor for two minutes.

5 p.m.

Liberal

Darrell Samson Liberal Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS

I need a quick, short answer.

Listen, we know statistically that it's very important and you do a good job. That's not what this is about. All we want to know is this. I went through the survey a few minutes ago. Is it true that most people will only have to answer one of the five questions—the added questions—because it's not for them?

Is it going to take a lot longer to answer the short survey with five questions because only five per cent are going to answer all of them because they don't apply? Is it true that they only apply to a small group of entitled parents?

5 p.m.

Chief Statistician of Canada, Statistics Canada

Anil Arora

We've designed the questionnaire as it was administered, to your point, in 2019 to make sure that we keep the burden to a minimum, and I think you proved in quite eloquent terms that it works.

5 p.m.

Liberal

Darrell Samson Liberal Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS

Very good, so we can't say that it's going to take too long or that people will get discouraged, because they're only going to answer the ones that are appropriate.

Thank you for that.

In consultation, did the committee you worked with give any opinions on whether it should be a short or long survey? Everybody who came here said short, so did you ask the committee experts for an opinion on that?

5:05 p.m.

Chief Statistician of Canada, Statistics Canada

Anil Arora

They know exactly what we were testing, the different versions of the questionnaire. They know that we've tested it in different ways—

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

Darrell Samson Liberal Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS

Did they express one preferred over the other, short or long survey?

5:05 p.m.

Chief Statistician of Canada, Statistics Canada

Anil Arora

One, that's not their mandate.

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

Darrell Samson Liberal Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS

I appreciate that, but everybody who came here said short.

You know, you also admitted that the short survey, because of your exact facts.... You know everything about it because everybody receives it, which is important. My colleague talked about 3,000 households in a community, and only 100 households in that community are French. Is it possible you wouldn't touch one of the 100 if you're only giving it to 25%? Is that possible—not probable—but possible? You only have 100 out of 3,000. Is it possible nobody in the 100 gets it, yes or no?

5:05 p.m.

Chief Statistician of Canada, Statistics Canada

Anil Arora

The answer is no.

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

Darrell Samson Liberal Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS

It's not possible?

5:05 p.m.

Chief Statistician of Canada, Statistics Canada

Anil Arora

It's not possible. Through the statistical sampling, the way it works, what we do.... I'll just explain it. We take the list of addresses in a geography, there's a random-number start, and every fourth household after that—

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

Darrell Samson Liberal Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS

Yes, but is it possible that none of the 100 will get it?

5:05 p.m.

Chief Statistician of Canada, Statistics Canada

Anil Arora

In over 50 years of sampling, we have never—