Official Languages Committee on Feb. 2nd, 2021

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Ms. Gagnon.

Ms. Martinez Ferrada, go ahead for the next six minutes.

[Soraya Martinez Ferrada, Liberal, Hochelaga, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

First of all, I want to thank you for being with us this evening and for taking part in this committee meeting, which is indeed very important.

Like you interpreters, we are Zoom users too. I am one, and I have to admit that just listening to you when you interpret requires a lot of concentration. So I can imagine what it must be like to do it. I really empathize with you given the work you do, and I can imagine the difficulties you encounter. I also want to thank you for telling us about them.

There is a shared responsibility in this situation. We members must be prepared with our tools and our headsets, and we must speak a little more slowly so you can interpret.

In practical terms, what else do you think we members can do to help you? Should we have stricter rules to ensure better interpretation?

For example, I'd go so far as to suggest that members not be permitted to sit without wearing their headsets. What you think about that?

[Nicole Gagnon]

Thank you for that question.

I can tell you that the platform is the problem. Of course, wearing headsets and having an Internet cable connection should be mandatory because we obviously can't interpret your remarks correctly if we can't hear what you say.

However, it's not just the volume issue. All too often, when we tell people we can't hear them, they turn up the volume. However, what we need is to hear your remarks clearly. You have to understand that we're listening to what you say, processing that information and speaking over your voice. Suddenly, the volume goes up. That's where we risk getting injured because sometimes the volume's too high.

So what you can do as members is reconsider the set-up. I don't really know whether it's possible to consider another platform than Zoom at this point. However, interpretation platforms do exist. You could definitely—and I urge you, implore you and beg you to do it—make it a mandatory rule to wear a headset with an integrated microphone and to get an Internet cable connection.

[Soraya Martinez Ferrada, Liberal, Hochelaga, QC]

Thank you for your answer.

[Jim Thompson, Communications Counsel, Canada Region, International Association of Conference Interpreters]

I would add to that, and it relates to the decisions that Public Services and Procurement are making now that would, we fear, increase the time that freelance interpreters will be exposed to the toxic sound Nicole mentioned is coming through Zoom.

This is a time for caution. We know people are getting hurt, and it is not a time to increase the hours that freelancers are exposed to that situation. As Nicole said, if the staffers are falling because of those conditions, it won't be long before freelancers do too. Then what?

[Soraya Martinez Ferrada, Liberal, Hochelaga, QC]

Thank you for that answer, Mr. Thompson.

I'd also like to go back to the recommendations that the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs made respecting interpretation services. They included a rule that members and witnesses participating in virtual meetings of the House or committees be required to wear their headsets you just discussed.

Should we set a deadline when inviting witnesses to ensure they have the necessary tools, such as a headset, to appear before the committees, for example? In several committees, I've seen witnesses wearing headsets that were not appropriate for interpretation.

Do you think we should establish the longest possible lead time to ensure they arrive in the House with headsets so they can contribute to committee meetings?

[Nicole Gagnon]

Yes, definitely. Anything you can do in advance will be a big help to us. You're right.

Parliamentarians wear their headsets now, but it took some time for them to come around to the idea. It's unfortunately not a widespread practice among witnesses, but, if they have more time to receive the headset the House offers them, then they'll be able to use it.

[Soraya Martinez Ferrada, Liberal, Hochelaga, QC]

Thank you.

Mr. Thompson, do you want to add something?

[Jim Thompson]

The headset is just one part of the audio chain. There is the headset, the microphone, the Internet connection and the platform, Zoom, through which the sound goes before it finally reaches the interpreter. Because of that, addressing one broken part of the chain doesn't fix the whole problem.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Mr. Thompson

Thank you Ms. Martinez Ferrada.

Now we will go to Mr. Beaulieu for the next six minutes.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

First of all, thanks to Ms. Gagnon for her excellent presentation. She told us there was a shortage of interpreters. I'd like her to say a little more about that and to tell us how she thinks we could address that shortage.

[Nicole Gagnon]

Thank you for your question.

The shortage of interpreters preceded the pandemic, which merely exacerbated the situation. Across the country, there are approximately 50 interpreters who currently work as Translation Bureau staffers and who are qualified to work on the Hill.

We have to make sure that Parliament functions properly, and we rely on a very small group of people to do that work. So it seems to me we should protect them so they don't in turn get injured. Once again we are asked to come and work in the same conditions experienced by the employees who have been injured and have to stop working. Our fear is that, if no one intervenes to protect the freelance interpreters who provide reinforcement, fewer and fewer of them will be able to provide their services to Parliament and that, as a result, there will be no one to do the work.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Should we adopt a policy in Parliament prohibiting anyone without a headset from speaking?

[Nicole Gagnon]

I would totally agree with that, as I told Ms. Martinez Ferrada, if that were possible. It seems to me that where there's a will, there's a way. Yes, it would definitely be a solution if everyone wore a headset.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Members would probably make sure they always had their headsets with them if that kind of rule were introduced.

You said the Zoom platform wasn't appropriate for interpreters.

To your knowledge, could other, more appropriate platforms or systems that are used elsewhere be used here?

[Nicole Gagnon]

In the document containing our opening remarks, we provide a list of available platforms that have been tested by an independent engineering company.

As you'll see, the Zoom platform is ranked last. Other platforms, interpretation platforms, are more suitable. For example, the Kudo platform is used in Europe. There's also Ablioconference. There are several platforms. All I can tell you is that the one the Canadian government has selected is unfortunately not the best. In fact, it's ranked dead last.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

It seems Public Services and Procurement Canada will soon be reviewing your contract, and that will mean deteriorating working conditions for you. For example, you would be working in teams of two interpreters instead of three. I don't know whether you can tell us more about that. It seems absurd to revise the quality of your working conditions downward when there's a shortage of interpreters. It should be the reverse in order to retain staff and facilitate recruitment.

[Nicole Gagnon]

Thank you for that question.

The contract in question is the freelance interpreters' contract and its renewable annually. The contract comes into force on July 1 ^x and expires on June 30. So that means decisions have to be made on the terms and conditions of the upcoming contract, which is what we're doing now.

We find it hard to understand why the Canadian government would want to offer us less favourable conditions in the midst of a pandemic by exposing us to longer hours of work and other conditions. We need to exercise some caution because, as we told you, the platform is what it is: it's affecting our hearing and injuring us. So don't ask us to work longer hours; on the contrary, we need to work in accordance with the temporary measures that have been adopted until the platform problem can be solved.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

We will definitely be getting presentations by technical experts who can guide us. We could also issue directives, such as requiring witnesses to provide their documents in advance to facilitate the interpreters' work. Would you have any other suggestions for us?

[Nicole Gagnon]

As Ms. Martinez Ferrada proposed, and you yourself mentioned, there should be a deadline for confirming witnesses so they can acquire appropriate headsets. It's also very important to have a stable Internet connection.

We also need the documents so we can prepare. I'm not an expert in all fields. You have to understand that we're called upon to work for some 25 standing committees of the House and the same number for the Senate and that we jump from one topic to another. If I work on the Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans, I don't know the names of the 33,000 species of fish in English or in French. If I have to interpret a presentation on that, it's absolutely crucial that I get the documentation in advance so I can do that work and do it well.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Ms. Gagnon. That's all the time we have.

I turn the floor over to Mr. Boulerice for six minutes.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Thompson and Ms. Gagnon, thank you for being with us this evening. What you say is very interesting and instructive, and I hope the committee can do a good job and help you and all the people you represent.

Our discussions this evening have raised two very important issues: respect for the two official languages and bilingualism, a very important value that we advocate, but also—and perhaps especially—occupational health and safety, on which we accept no compromise.

Ms. Gagnon, you said that 70% of your members had suffered work-related injuries, including tinnitus, nausea, fatigue and other symptoms. That's an enormous percentage. Some of your members are off work, while others are still providing the service that we need and that Canadians and Quebecers need as well.

Do you have any idea of the impact of prolonged exposure to all this toxic sound and the cumulative effect of that exposure that causes occupational injury?

[Nicole Gagnon]

Thank you for your question, Mr. Boulerice.

I would say we don't yet know the long-term effects of prolonged exposure to this toxic sound. You have to understand that we come and work day after day and that we are currently on the platform three or four hours every day. Before the pandemic hit, we were working six hours a day. Then the Translation Bureau adopted the precautionary principle and shortened our workload to four hours. However, we're still getting injured even at four hours a day.

Now the bureau wants to increase our workload to five hours a day. We think that's dangerous. All that to say that we don't exactly know how these injuries affect the inner ear, but we do know something is happening. The studies are under way, and the empirical evidence of the injuries we are incurring is being gathered.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

There are permanent interpreters and freelance interpreters, of which you are one. The government hasn't really invested in an the next generation of high-quality interpreters who are briefed on the issues.

Are we at a breaking point, and is there a risk that we may not have enough interpreters to do the work in the Parliament of Canada?

[Nicole Gagnon]

I would say yes. For lack of the necessary resources, the Translation Bureau already has to refuse to allow interpreters to work at certain meetings of members, such as caucuses, although it's not withholding their services from committee meetings for the moment. The Canadian government must absolutely invest in interpreter training to ensure there is a next generation of interpreters. Only two universities in Canada train interpreters, and one of them, the University of Ottawa, shut down last year as a result of the pandemic, but also because the resources preparing the next generation were required on the Hill. They simply had to go to work.

In the long term, we have to invest in interpreter training, somewhat as was the case when we invested in women who wanted to study science, engineering and mathematics. That's where we are now. So we're capable of doing the same for interpreter training, if we have the will to do so.